Xenophobic writershateya_habibaDecember 10 2009, 05:12:43 UTC
Does it bother anyone that the franchise writers go above and beyond the call of duty to present the Vulcans as a xenophobic race? The writers worry me more than the characters. The message is clear: Unless you look like us, think like us and prefer us above all others, you're xenophobic and in our storytelling we'll make it abundantly clear that you're lesser. People like Spock (appearing as the tragic mulatto) and like T'Pol (appearing as an emotionally unstable drug addict whose emotions are too close to the surface) because they prefer us. Any species who doesn't jump on the human led Federation-bandwagon is presented in severely negative terms.
Spock's treatment at the hands of a few classmates (they didn't even qualify as a handful) and one (yes one) Vulcan Science Academy member does not a xenophobic species make. Spock was accepted into the science academy. He chose not to attend in the same way many franchise writers choose not to show many Vulcans (Sarek aside...even he is written as being reluctant) who look upon Spock favorably.
What about the other council members? Since Amanda shouldn't have been there, who was the smiling clapping woman? Some Vulcan. Spock also saved the lives of these very same council members (although it appears as if SmilingWoman and XenophobicMman were killed). When the Katric Ark survivors materialized on the transporter pad, I thought, in Vulcan terms, they expressed a great deal of sympathy for Spock's personal loss.
Kirk is praised for willing screwing every human-like female in the galaxy, yet he referred to Spock as a "pointy-eared bastard" after he, Kirk, was caught cheating. McCoy called him a "green-bloodied hop-goblin" instead of continuing to question Spock's state of mind. I don't even want to get into how Spock was treated later... he even got torched at the hands of SpockPrime. That still leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.
So we're to presume that they spoke in good fun and in homage to the old series, while Vulcans are xenophobic? If the tiny examples are representative of xenophobia, then AU humans are xenophobic, too, and Vulcan's shouldn't want to breed with them.
In answer to the real question at hand: Vulcans have other choices. Other Vulcanoid species exist in the overall Trekverse: Romulans, Remans, Rigelians, Halanans and so forth. Humans are not the only option. I believe Vulcans would accept those who wished to walk the logical Vulcan path.
I'm hoping for some contrived time-travel plot that would restore Vulcan and her people.
Re: Xenophobic writersthreeb_1973December 10 2009, 05:30:51 UTC
I have never liked the way the writers portrayed the Vulcans as xenophobic, especially in later series. I agree with the assessment of reboot!kirk, he seemed silly and immature to me, and I just can't see him having the same kind of friendship with Spock that was portrayed in TOS. McCoy not questioning Spock's state of mind also annoyed me. Spock gets pissed and puts Kirk off the ship? That was a pretty clear tip off that the man was grieving and not thinking straight.
However, I didn't get that Spock was torched by Spock Prime, and I definitely got the sense that the Vulcans saw Spock's human heritage as a disadvantage. I don't remember the clapping woman, or the Vulcans grieving with Spock. I'll have to watch again and make sure to look for those things.
Re: Xenophobic writershateya_habibaDecember 10 2009, 07:49:55 UTC
I definitely got the sense that the Vulcans saw Spock's human heritage as a disadvantage.
Perhaps you've touched upon a key word here: heritage. Even if Spock were the product of an "interracial" marriage among humans, there would be certain disadvantages. This isn't related to intelligence, but how one conducts oneself in society (especially the father's). Spock's barely restrained (when it comes to his mother and is understandable) violent tendencies are indeed troublesome for a society that has taken a radical means to escape those very same tendencies. The ones that threatened to bring their species to extinction 5,000 years earlier.
I'm not excusing them from hurting Spock because Spock is the Vulcan I care about the most, however, I do take exception when I am consistently told (via the narrative) that his Vulcan DNA makes him equally despised among humans although only Vulcans are expected to take the brunt of our wrath.
I don't remember the clapping woman, or the Vulcans grieving with Spock. I'll have to watch again and make sure to look for those things.
The clapping/smiling is definitely there. The grieving was not overt and my perception is based on an impression I got when I saw it. The same applies to SpockPrime "torching" NuSpock. It was an instinctive revulsion.
As for McCoy and Spock's state of mind. WTF kind of Chief Medical Officer was he?! ImmatureKirk... Don't get me started. :D
This is a great topic. I'm glad you brought it up!
Re: Xenophobic writerscleojonesDecember 10 2009, 05:54:51 UTC
Flaws make characters and races more interesting IMO. The fact that they do show these issues, this xenophobia, is a good thing, to me.
It doesn't have to be an either or thing. Complexity, true complexity means these qualities, good and bad can co-exist within the *same* characters. One can show sympathy for Spock's loss *and* be xenophobic.
It's why McCoy is such a likable, appealing character despite all the racist jabs at Spock.
Re: Xenophobic writershateya_habibaDecember 10 2009, 07:01:53 UTC
The narrative just doesn't acknowledge it as being problematic, which is a whole other issue.
This is definitely one of *my* issues.
Humans are portrayed a little to heroic for me ( sometimes) in the Trekverse.
Honestly, I can barely swallow Enterprise. The whole Jonathan Archer is God makes me feel like someone raking their fingernails across a greenboard.
this, it's actually a reflection of our own world personified. There would be no stories without these sort of politics to guide the characters and plots.
I understand this. I also understand writing a balanced narrative, especially in a genre that pretends that the future is heading in the right direction. My problem is that Vulcans and other aliens are perceived negatively (by me at least) 95% of the time because they are written that way. There are countless other ways to advance plots and guide characters. Okay, so Spock needs to be conflicted. I'm fine with that, however, this internal angst doesn't need to come at the expense of an entire species. I particularly despise how Vulcans are portrayed in Enterprise.
Even in fanfiction, it's almost unheard of for writers to appreciate the good that stems from Spock's Vulcan background. Being Vulcan is no more a dirty word than being human, but the general consensus these days that all things Vulcan is bad and this harkens back to the writing and why it's written this way.
Re: Xenophobic writersyalegirl03December 10 2009, 07:35:43 UTC
Even in fanfiction, it's almost unheard of for writers to appreciate the good that stems from Spock's Vulcan background. Being Vulcan is no more a dirty word than being human, but the general consensus these days that all things Vulcan is bad and this harkens back to the writing and why it's written this way.
Hmm, that does seem to be the trend. It is funny that the thing I like most about Spock is the fact that he is a Vulcan---the same with Tuvok. They were such GQMFs. In TOS, the writers did seem to make Spock's emotional detachment seem like a liability, but I always thought it was a strength. When shit went down, you knew Spock would be on top of things. He was not going to go running around with his head cut off or cry about things. I mean, Journey to Babel was a great example. There was murder, papa dying of a heart condition, Orions parading as Andorians, some freaky ship tailing the Enterprise and Spock and Sarek were the only dudes with level heads through it all. I suppose the writers meant to cast Spock's sense of duty as a sign of his cold and unfeeling Vulcanness, but I thought it demonstrated what a good Starfleet officer Spock was. For a Starship that was constantly being taken over by super powered beings, chased by planet destroying energy worms and all other kinds of freaky shit, having a Vulcan first officer was an asset. Also, I loved the nerve pinch thingy.
Now that I think of it, it seems that fanfiction writers just harp on the emotional detachment bit. But everything else about Vulcans makes them so exotic and kick ass. I mean, how many fics marvel over Vulcan strength, the ancient culture, their intelligence and superior memory, the freaky hotness that is the mind meld, the scary yet kinky goodness that is pon farr, pointy ears, living to be old as dirt. I could go on and on. I can honestly say that if were not for Vulcans, I probably wouldn't be much of a Trekkie. That was why I was so sad JJ decided to blow up Vulcan. I mean, come on! Vulcan is pretty kick ass.
Hmm, I realize now that this post is sort of off incoherent. I should not participate in discussions at 2:30AM.
Re: Xenophobic writerscleojonesDecember 10 2009, 07:52:45 UTC
I think it's mistake to apply intent to writing unless we know for sure that's what they wanted.
There are *even here* as you mention too many examples of Vulcan heritage as an asset for it to be the case that they wanted to portray it as any less.
As for what rawles said, about humans not being overtly criticized for xenophobic behavior, at first I was like 'well if they were to do so intentionally it would come off heavy-handed and I hate that'. But there *are* ways to indicate criticism and disapproval of it without wielding a heavy, obvious, hand about it...If a writer is capable of doing that.
As for the other indicators mentioned, that humans are indeed the ones to benefit most and represent the majority and all the privilege that entails, I think some unintentional but no less profound statements can be gleaned from that.
As for the Vulcans, they are the exotic other, similarly treated to the ones we already have here on Earth, why wouldn't that carry-over to those aspects as well?
Re: Xenophobic writershateya_habibaDecember 10 2009, 08:16:08 UTC
As for the Vulcans, they are the exotic other, similarly treated to the ones we already have here on Earth, why wouldn't that carry-over to those aspects as well?
As a species we have a long way to go. I can only hope we get there before a large meteor comes by and wipes us out.
I think it's mistake to apply intent to writing unless we know for sure that's what they wanted.
I'd probably feel the same way if the franchise writers weren't so consistent in their narratives.
Re: Xenophobic writershateya_habibaDecember 10 2009, 08:01:49 UTC
Hmm, that does seem to be the trend. It is funny that the thing I like most about Spock is the fact that he is a Vulcan---the same with Tuvok.
Yes to everything you've said!!! I know I never would have bothered with Voyager if it had not been for Tuvok! He was the Vulcan extraordinaire!
Do you remember that episode where Kirk was beamed to an Enterprise replica? Spock and Scotty worked it out, so Spock beamed to the same place. He went to the bridge. Shit didn't work. He scanned with his tricorder. Nobody registered. What did he do? He raised an eyebrow and then went and found the damned captain and saved the day.
I'm like Uhura. I like a man who can get it done!
I can honestly say that if were not for Vulcans, I probably wouldn't be much of a Trekkie. That was why I was so sad JJ decided to blow up Vulcan. I mean, come on! Vulcan is pretty kick ass.
This here!!! JJ better find a new damned way to time-travel and bring the logical planet back!
Re: Xenophobic writersperi_peteiaDecember 10 2009, 09:20:41 UTC
I suppose the writers meant to cast Spock's sense of duty as a sign of his cold and unfeeling Vulcanness, but I thought it demonstrated what a good Starfleet officer Spock was.
Word.
But then that's why I fic and fantasize about Spock being captain of the Enterprise so much.
Though I will say re: other Vulcan traits besides emotional detachment...
I think people focus on the emotional detachment because their struggle to control their emotions is genuinely central to their entire culture AND if you want to talk about Spock/Uhura fic specifically, well, he's being paired with a human so you have to reflect on that to a certain extent. That said, I don't really see a dearth of people mentioning his strength, intelligence, memory, mindmelds, and certainly the ears in fanfic either. There's less that focuses on their culture or their long life spans, but I imagine the former is because of the amount of research required and the latter because it's sad if one considers how many people important to him he'll likely outlive. (Though actually people ignore how ridic long humans apparently live by the 24th century, which would mitigate that a lot, if not entirely.)
Re: Xenophobic writersyalegirl03December 10 2009, 16:29:49 UTC
I agree about the human lifespans. With all those advances in technology, you know the first thing people would be on top of is how to live as long as possible. Even now, all the progress they are making in stem cell research and with adult stem cells makes it plausible to think that in 100 years or s, people will have made some significant discovery about how to dramatically extend the human lifespan. I read some awesome story set during the TOS epsiode with the Guardian of Forever where that chic getting run over and McCoy were s fix things , so Spock, Kirk and McCoy were stuck in the 1940s. They went through the late 1990s until Uhura joined them and then it was another 14 or so years before they got back to their own time. McCoy used the modern medicine of his time to extend his life, so that eventhough he was in his 90s by the time Uhura came, he had the body of a really fit 40 or 50 year old. That seemed totally plausible to me.
Re: Xenophobic writersperi_peteiaDecember 10 2009, 06:18:59 UTC
Does it bother anyone that the franchise writers go above and beyond the call of duty to present the Vulcans as a xenophobic race? The writers worry me more than the characters. The message is clear: Unless you look like us, think like us and prefer us above all others, you're xenophobic and in our storytelling we'll make it abundantly clear that you're lesser.
I think you're conflating two separate, though related, issues.
Simply put, when it comes to Vulcans you can't ignore what is clearly meant to be, narratively-speaking, a representative sample. I'm certain that not every Vulcan is xenophobic, but the treatment of Spock was clearly intended to be, like real world racism, not just individual acts of meanness. As a fictional race, Vulcans have been presented in this same fairly consistent manner for many years and it's tied up in the reams and reams that have been written about their culture. So, it's impossible to dismiss it and say, "Well, their society doesn't ACTUALLY have problems with xenophobia and being really insular!"
That said, as someone who's written a 13,0000 word fic and a super long ridiculous commentary on that fic entirely about the history of racism against Vulcans in Trek and is founding an entire community about how Starfleet is ridic colonialist and treats non-humans like shit pretty much always...it's also not just Vulcans or, I would venture to say, even primarily Vulcans. Starfleet/The Federation is just as empirically xenophobic and due to the biases of the text, they are also generally the ones in the position of power which also necessarily colors the Vulcan reaction to humans. (See also: how humans clearly dominate Starfleet despite the fact that Vulcans were the ones who made first contact with them and taught them how to fucking space travel.) The problem is that you are indeed supposed to perceive the humans/Starfleet as the protagonists and thus not notice their xenophobia.
Spock's treatment at the hands of a few classmates (they didn't even qualify as a handful) and one (yes one) Vulcan Science Academy member does not a xenophobic species make. Spock was accepted into the science academy. He chose not to attend in the same way many franchise writers choose not to show many Vulcans (Sarek aside...even he is written as being reluctant) who look upon Spock favorably.
What about the other council members? Since Amanda shouldn't have been there, who was the smiling clapping woman? Some Vulcan. Spock also saved the lives of these very same council members (although it appears as if SmilingWoman and XenophobicMman were killed). When the Katric Ark survivors materialized on the transporter pad, I thought, in Vulcan terms, they expressed a great deal of sympathy for Spock's personal loss.
Kirk is praised for willing screwing every human-like female in the galaxy, yet he referred to Spock as a "pointy-eared bastard" after he, Kirk, was caught cheating. McCoy called him a "green-bloodied hop-goblin" instead of continuing to question Spock's state of mind. I don't even want to get into how Spock was treated later... he even got torched at the hands of SpockPrime. That still leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.
So we're to presume that they spoke in good fun and in homage to the old series, while Vulcans are xenophobic? If the tiny examples are representative of xenophobia, then AU humans are xenophobic, too, and Vulcan's shouldn't want to breed with them.
In answer to the real question at hand: Vulcans have other choices. Other Vulcanoid species exist in the overall Trekverse: Romulans, Remans, Rigelians, Halanans and so forth. Humans are not the only option. I believe Vulcans would accept those who wished to walk the logical Vulcan path.
I'm hoping for some contrived time-travel plot that would restore Vulcan and her people.
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However, I didn't get that Spock was torched by Spock Prime, and I definitely got the sense that the Vulcans saw Spock's human heritage as a disadvantage. I don't remember the clapping woman, or the Vulcans grieving with Spock. I'll have to watch again and make sure to look for those things.
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Perhaps you've touched upon a key word here: heritage. Even if Spock were the product of an "interracial" marriage among humans, there would be certain disadvantages. This isn't related to intelligence, but how one conducts oneself in society (especially the father's). Spock's barely restrained (when it comes to his mother and is understandable) violent tendencies are indeed troublesome for a society that has taken a radical means to escape those very same tendencies. The ones that threatened to bring their species to extinction 5,000 years earlier.
I'm not excusing them from hurting Spock because Spock is the Vulcan I care about the most, however, I do take exception when I am consistently told (via the narrative) that his Vulcan DNA makes him equally despised among humans although only Vulcans are expected to take the brunt of our wrath.
I don't remember the clapping woman, or the Vulcans grieving with Spock. I'll have to watch again and make sure to look for those things.
The clapping/smiling is definitely there. The grieving was not overt and my perception is based on an impression I got when I saw it. The same applies to SpockPrime "torching" NuSpock. It was an instinctive revulsion.
As for McCoy and Spock's state of mind. WTF kind of Chief Medical Officer was he?! ImmatureKirk... Don't get me started. :D
This is a great topic. I'm glad you brought it up!
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It doesn't have to be an either or thing. Complexity, true complexity means these qualities, good and bad can co-exist within the *same* characters. One can show sympathy for Spock's loss *and* be xenophobic.
It's why McCoy is such a likable, appealing character despite all the racist jabs at Spock.
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But they do show that. All the time. Constantly. The narrative just doesn't acknowledge it as being problematic, which is a whole other issue.
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This is definitely one of *my* issues.
Humans are portrayed a little to heroic for me ( sometimes) in the Trekverse.
Honestly, I can barely swallow Enterprise. The whole Jonathan Archer is God makes me feel like someone raking their fingernails across a greenboard.
this, it's actually a reflection of our own world personified. There would be no stories without these sort of politics to guide the characters and plots.
I understand this. I also understand writing a balanced narrative, especially in a genre that pretends that the future is heading in the right direction. My problem is that Vulcans and other aliens are perceived negatively (by me at least) 95% of the time because they are written that way. There are countless other ways to advance plots and guide characters. Okay, so Spock needs to be conflicted. I'm fine with that, however, this internal angst doesn't need to come at the expense of an entire species. I particularly despise how Vulcans are portrayed in Enterprise.
Even in fanfiction, it's almost unheard of for writers to appreciate the good that stems from Spock's Vulcan background. Being Vulcan is no more a dirty word than being human, but the general consensus these days that all things Vulcan is bad and this harkens back to the writing and why it's written this way.
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Hmm, that does seem to be the trend. It is funny that the thing I like most about Spock is the fact that he is a Vulcan---the same with Tuvok. They were such GQMFs. In TOS, the writers did seem to make Spock's emotional detachment seem like a liability, but I always thought it was a strength. When shit went down, you knew Spock would be on top of things. He was not going to go running around with his head cut off or cry about things. I mean, Journey to Babel was a great example. There was murder, papa dying of a heart condition, Orions parading as Andorians, some freaky ship tailing the Enterprise and Spock and Sarek were the only dudes with level heads through it all. I suppose the writers meant to cast Spock's sense of duty as a sign of his cold and unfeeling Vulcanness, but I thought it demonstrated what a good Starfleet officer Spock was. For a Starship that was constantly being taken over by super powered beings, chased by planet destroying energy worms and all other kinds of freaky shit, having a Vulcan first officer was an asset. Also, I loved the nerve pinch thingy.
Now that I think of it, it seems that fanfiction writers just harp on the emotional detachment bit. But everything else about Vulcans makes them so exotic and kick ass. I mean, how many fics marvel over Vulcan strength, the ancient culture, their intelligence and superior memory, the freaky hotness that is the mind meld, the scary yet kinky goodness that is pon farr, pointy ears, living to be old as dirt. I could go on and on. I can honestly say that if were not for Vulcans, I probably wouldn't be much of a Trekkie. That was why I was so sad JJ decided to blow up Vulcan. I mean, come on! Vulcan is pretty kick ass.
Hmm, I realize now that this post is sort of off incoherent. I should not participate in discussions at 2:30AM.
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There are *even here* as you mention too many examples of Vulcan heritage as an asset for it to be the case that they wanted to portray it as any less.
As for what rawles said, about humans not being overtly criticized for xenophobic behavior, at first I was like 'well if they were to do so intentionally it would come off heavy-handed and I hate that'. But there *are* ways to indicate criticism and disapproval of it without wielding a heavy, obvious, hand about it...If a writer is capable of doing that.
As for the other indicators mentioned, that humans are indeed the ones to benefit most and represent the majority and all the privilege that entails, I think some unintentional but no less profound statements can be gleaned from that.
As for the Vulcans, they are the exotic other, similarly treated to the ones we already have here on Earth, why wouldn't that carry-over to those aspects as well?
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As a species we have a long way to go. I can only hope we get there before a large meteor comes by and wipes us out.
I think it's mistake to apply intent to writing unless we know for sure that's what they wanted.
I'd probably feel the same way if the franchise writers weren't so consistent in their narratives.
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Yes to everything you've said!!! I know I never would have bothered with Voyager if it had not been for Tuvok! He was the Vulcan extraordinaire!
Do you remember that episode where Kirk was beamed to an Enterprise replica? Spock and Scotty worked it out, so Spock beamed to the same place. He went to the bridge. Shit didn't work. He scanned with his tricorder. Nobody registered. What did he do? He raised an eyebrow and then went and found the damned captain and saved the day.
I'm like Uhura. I like a man who can get it done!
I can honestly say that if were not for Vulcans, I probably wouldn't be much of a Trekkie. That was why I was so sad JJ decided to blow up Vulcan. I mean, come on! Vulcan is pretty kick ass.
This here!!! JJ better find a new damned way to time-travel and bring the logical planet back!
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Word.
But then that's why I fic and fantasize about Spock being captain of the Enterprise so much.
Though I will say re: other Vulcan traits besides emotional detachment...
I think people focus on the emotional detachment because their struggle to control their emotions is genuinely central to their entire culture AND if you want to talk about Spock/Uhura fic specifically, well, he's being paired with a human so you have to reflect on that to a certain extent. That said, I don't really see a dearth of people mentioning his strength, intelligence, memory, mindmelds, and certainly the ears in fanfic either. There's less that focuses on their culture or their long life spans, but I imagine the former is because of the amount of research required and the latter because it's sad if one considers how many people important to him he'll likely outlive. (Though actually people ignore how ridic long humans apparently live by the 24th century, which would mitigate that a lot, if not entirely.)
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Also, Old!McCoy is totally a Sex God.
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I think you're conflating two separate, though related, issues.
Simply put, when it comes to Vulcans you can't ignore what is clearly meant to be, narratively-speaking, a representative sample. I'm certain that not every Vulcan is xenophobic, but the treatment of Spock was clearly intended to be, like real world racism, not just individual acts of meanness. As a fictional race, Vulcans have been presented in this same fairly consistent manner for many years and it's tied up in the reams and reams that have been written about their culture. So, it's impossible to dismiss it and say, "Well, their society doesn't ACTUALLY have problems with xenophobia and being really insular!"
That said, as someone who's written a 13,0000 word fic and a super long ridiculous commentary on that fic entirely about the history of racism against Vulcans in Trek and is founding an entire community about how Starfleet is ridic colonialist and treats non-humans like shit pretty much always...it's also not just Vulcans or, I would venture to say, even primarily Vulcans. Starfleet/The Federation is just as empirically xenophobic and due to the biases of the text, they are also generally the ones in the position of power which also necessarily colors the Vulcan reaction to humans. (See also: how humans clearly dominate Starfleet despite the fact that Vulcans were the ones who made first contact with them and taught them how to fucking space travel.) The problem is that you are indeed supposed to perceive the humans/Starfleet as the protagonists and thus not notice their xenophobia.
Which is bullshit.
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