Shmorky vs Todd resolution (xposted a bit)

[spiffystuff]

Howdy. Since I don't really watch SA I hadn't seen that Shmorky had reached a resolution with Todd Goldman for, er, "mistakenly" copying Purple Pussy. Mike Tyndall's site still chronicals most of the material, although I'm a bit sad the initial SA thread got deleted

Comments

[spiffystuff]

Thanks for taking the time to find this/respond. I didn't realize you were banned till after I commented.

As I said, that kind of logic is exactly why people get bent out of shape over the statue.
I'm going to use myself as an example, although I suppose I'm not the best one as I'm more interested in all the discussion around the statue; the statue itself does not evoke more than an "uhg, yeah, this is why I stopped reading marvel" and move along to other things.
See, I'm not attractive. I *know* I'm not attractive. I'm not obsese, but I'm not skinny, and I have a billion better things to do than curl my hair, paint my nails, twease my eyebrows, etc. I have an MD/PhD to get, snakes to breed, comics to draw, martial arts to practice. I'm what you'd call a "tomboy", I guess, I have yetti legs and I like shocking people with them. It's amusing as hell.
I am the dog girl people made fun of in middle school, and I didn't give a crap. I don't *want* strangers finding me attractive. And thus, it is a big turn off to see every single women in a comic dresses, even moves, as though that's a top priority for her. I wouldn't care so much if it was just a couple, or if it was even across the genders, but it's not. And the conception people get from this is that the way "hot" women look is the way everyone's supposed to look, and if you don't then obviously you have some kind of problem.

As I said, I don't care all that much about the MJ statue, beyond "oh hey, yeah, that's why I don't read that" so maybe I'm not the best example, but there ya go.

Not that it really applies to the argument, but interestingly enough, my problem for the past several years has been *too many* men, not too few. And no, they're certainly not "gross" or "rejects" or whatever. It's been... confusing, as I once bought in to your point of view that this would never be an issue for me.

[skepticultist]

I don't really buy this line of argument. I know a lot of male comic books fans, and most of them are not remotely the masculine ideal that more or less every male superhero is. And yet, despite their lack of rippling muscles, despite their lack of strong square jaws, despite their usually prominent guts, and despite their completely inability to look heroic and dashing without provoking derisive laughter, I have never -- not even once -- heard a male comic book fan complain about the way men are presented in comic books. Add to this that these sort of doughy, soft chinned, completely undashing guys are routinely presented in all media as losers, scrubs, pathetic nobodies -- at best portrayed as likeable mensches destined to live under the thumb of some strong-willed woman -- and you would think these sorts of complaints would be commonplace. You'd think that comics would routinely feature schlubby heroes, yet I can't name a single superhero who isn't fit, trim and handsome. Well, maybe one or two joke superheroes, like Bouncing Boy or The Blimp. Even the "loser nerd" Peter Parker is hotter than most Hollywood hunks.

And anyone who thinks that men aren't sexualized in comics needs to pay more attention to gay fans. Gay male fans of comics are always pointing out the thinly veiled homoeroticism that permeates comics.

So the complaints about how women are portrayed in comics ring hollow and false to me. I honestly don't think it's a problem with comics. I think it's a problem with women. I won't pretend to know why so many women look at these sorts of images and let them destroy their confidence, but it happens. Maybe men are better at deluding themselves, and allowing themselves to identify with heroes. Maybe men are just so habitually trained to not whine about things that they never express these feelings (seems unlikely, as men sure whine about other things plenty). I don't know. I do know that women all too often allow themselves to use things like comics as a scapegoat for their own low self-esteem.

[spiffystuff]

You don't buy the argument? You just stated it yourself with your first response to me! "not conventionally pretty" girls who "resent the prettier girls and anything and everything that reminds them that the pretty girls get the world dropped at their feet while they have to suffer going unappreciated and unwanted" You equated physical attractiveness with "super done up" attractiveness with emotional attractiveness. You said women who aren't conventionally pretty are unwanted and that's just not true.

I have never -- not even once -- heard a male comic book fan complain about the way men are presented in comic books.
My boyfriend dislikes the way men are portrated; he is not a comic book fan, though, and that is one of the reasons why. It just so happens that he doesn't identify with the super dominant/powerful/aggressive idealization men tend to get. The irony is that I do. You don't hear male comic book fans complaining about it probably because the people who don't like it aren't comic book fans. "but why do women read comics then?" Probably because they are craving their own adolescent power fantasy, and identifying with the men. At least, that's why I read them.
Furthermore, plenty of male fans complained when Alex Ross drew a comic book man with a too-emphasized "package". I could dig up the link if you haven't already seen it.

And anyone who thinks that men aren't sexualized in comics needs to pay more attention to gay fans.
I would counter that anyone who thinks men ARE sexualized in mainstream comics needs to pay more attention to gay comics. The men look... appreciably different. The recent influx of mainstream comics has changed that a bit, though, these days some of the young men do look dressed/drawn to be "hot" rather than just "powerful".
But still, generally speaking while comic book men are certainly idealized, it is in a different way than comic book women. You'll notice, for example, with a lot of the image/wildstorm art, the men tend to be super-extra-clothed, and look ominous and mysterious, while the women tend to be scantily clad and their "badassness" is tied up in their sexuality. :P

[skepticultist]

You don't buy the argument?

That's right.

You just stated it yourself with your first response to me!

Um, no, no I didn't. Something is clearly being miscommunicated.

I would counter that anyone who thinks men ARE sexualized in mainstream comics needs to pay more attention to gay comics. The men look... appreciably different.

Yeah. They look gay. Like that image you linked to. That is not a image of heterosexual masculinity, that's an image of homosexual sexuality.

[spiffystuff]

*shrug* Okay. Agree to disagree then.

[spiffystuff]

Sorry, forgot the illustration: If there were a lot of mainstream comic book men who like this, I'd give more creedence to the "but men are sexualized too" argument.