Re: Yeah, its all relateddawndJune 27 2003, 18:51:42 UTC
Yeah, they're definitely related. But I wouldn't equate them, for the very reason you outlined above--the one (art) has a positive slant, and the other (artifice) a negative one.
Re: Yeah, its all relatedspicetraderJune 27 2003, 19:26:59 UTC
Trickery and deception positive? I would boldly suggest that one who claims positive deception is in fact, rather self-righteous in their aim, and that they also have little regard for the decieved, even if on the surface it would appear that the deception was for some greater good.
The government lying to the people is a perfect example. Layers upon layers of artifice. In some ways, its a beautiful thing, and in others, very grotesque. But that doesn't matter because its all the same thing, really.
Virtue is illusion too.spicetraderJune 27 2003, 21:07:21 UTC
You and her father did what you did because you yourselves believed it was the right thing to do...and I support that behaviour as something of a prime directive. However, what you did was not asked of you. In fact, you and he did what she expressly didn't want at that time. Self-righteous? Yes. Right or wrong? No. The right thing to do? There may be factors that simply could not have been known, but tip that scale. Karmic factors, for instance.
What would I have done in that case? I would have called the men in white coats to come and take her away. I would not have deceived her. Do you two still spend time together?
Re: Virtue is illusion too.dawndJune 27 2003, 21:25:01 UTC
I'm not sure I'd still be speaking to you if you had "called the men in white coats" on me. That's far LESS voluntary than what actually happened. To "take her away" without her consent would be a violent act, IMO. Whereas to get her to go to the emergency room under her own power, albeit under something of a deception, is, IMO, far LESS violent. It's also more flexible, in that it's easier to change medications as an outpatient, than, say incarcerated in the loony bin.
Re: Virtue is illusion too.spicetraderJune 28 2003, 05:45:25 UTC
I guess I'm speaking from my own feeling. I'd immediated unfriend anyone who did either to me. Given the choice between being lied to or dragged off, I prefer to go kicking and screaming.
I also only would pick that option if the other party is threatening to kill themselves if I leave or get too close. Yes, this has happened before. Yes I did call someone. Yes I would do it again.
Re: So is self-righteousness.spicetraderJune 28 2003, 05:56:41 UTC
She called you? I would have decieved her. She asked for help. Definitely go rent The Game.
I hold firm belief that there is no right or wrong in what you did or could have done or didn't do. My questions and statements are designed to make everything the same. For me at least.
As much as I'd love to type in here all day, I'm getting on a plane this morning. Airplane. To Little Rock.
Re: So is self-righteousness.spicetraderJune 28 2003, 07:12:45 UTC
One thing I want to make clear: I view right and wrong as the end result of our judgements, and also that judgement is inherently a slippery slope. Absolute or abstract, I've been trying to view this entire conversation tree in the absence of judgement of right or wrong, looking for what is.
Funny: Getting on a plane at the airport vs. getting on a plane of existence.
Ok, for real now, I simply must get to the airport.
Re: Yeah, its all relatedspicetraderJune 27 2003, 21:23:59 UTC
By the way, I can indeed think of ways in which trickery and deception can be positive. The movie The Game came to mind.
And art may be inappropriate sometimes too, infringing on something else maybe.
And artificial can be the real thing over time as well. Take candles for example. Candlefish used to smoke like mad, and smell. Now we have waxes that burn much more cleanly. Artificial substances that are so much better that they become the real thing.
Thank you for helping too! This is exactly why I began this exercise by saying that artificial = belonging to art
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Artifice appears to be 'an artfully crafted deception', and thus references art, and something human-made as well.
The biggest difference being that one is of neutral intent, while the other is trickery and deceptive
art = artifice = artificial
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And that's also the exact reason that I'm equating them too. Conceptualize it as development of inclusive thinking.
Thanks for helping!
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The government lying to the people is a perfect example. Layers upon layers of artifice. In some ways, its a beautiful thing, and in others, very grotesque. But that doesn't matter because its all the same thing, really.
Illusion.
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What would I have done in that case? I would have called the men in white coats to come and take her away. I would not have deceived her. Do you two still spend time together?
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I also only would pick that option if the other party is threatening to kill themselves if I leave or get too close. Yes, this has happened before. Yes I did call someone. Yes I would do it again.
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I hold firm belief that there is no right or wrong in what you did or could have done or didn't do. My questions and statements are designed to make everything the same. For me at least.
As much as I'd love to type in here all day, I'm getting on a plane this morning. Airplane. To Little Rock.
*hugs*
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Funny: Getting on a plane at the airport vs. getting on a plane of existence.
Ok, for real now, I simply must get to the airport.
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And isn't that a kick, me being the one to espouse a moderate stance. I guess I'm finally starting to get this "endless see of grey" thing!
So sayeth the recovering fundmentalist/perfectionist. ;^)
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And art may be inappropriate sometimes too, infringing on something else maybe.
And artificial can be the real thing over time as well. Take candles for example. Candlefish used to smoke like mad, and smell. Now we have waxes that burn much more cleanly. Artificial substances that are so much better that they become the real thing.
Thank you for helping too! This is exactly why I began this exercise by saying that artificial = belonging to art
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