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[sparrowsupport]

 DISCLAIMER: These comments are in no way directed at specific individuals, groups of fans, or websites but are an attempt to express some long withheld frustrations. Any resemblance to specific individuals, groups of fans and or websites is purely coincidental. All rights reserved...

I might be off my rocker, but I don't believe that Will

Comments

[sparrowsupport]

Intolerant and unfeeling? I hardly see how that could be possible! Was it because you spoke your mind? It seems to be a difficult thing to do now in an all or nothing environment, where either you're a traitor, or you ship J/E. (I agree with your politicking by the way but fortunately the wind FINALLY seems to be shifting.) Too bad that you don't come out of the corner more often to play. The fandom could benefit from a fresh perspective. After all, there are always new kids on the block....yes, that's a pun but only if you remember the band... ;)

To be honest, I think Will had a lot of potential in the films, but they needed one more movie to flesh it out more. By cramming all they did into AWE, they weren't as successful with what they wanted to do for Will--which is to give him a compelling story-line with which to grow as a character. They took it to a certain point, but without a well drawn conclusion, his character lost its shape. The same can be said of all the characters to be honest. Really, some of what took place in AWE ought to have been put into DMC to make more room for the characters, but what can you do? The movie is set to be released on DVD and Disney has their millions.

As for being deleted from flists....take what you can, give nothing back eh?

What did you think of AWE?

[compassrose7577]

First off, let it be said that I've seen it around 15 times--maybe sixteen. On the other hand, I'd seen DMC around 40 before it left the screen, maybe more.

Obsessed, aren't I?

That said, I'm with a large part of the fandom: They lost their way. It would be easy to explain away that they made DMC and then got all caught up in the 'third movie' syndrome and went off on an ill-advised tangent. As we know, that's not what happened, so it's very difficult to explain what did happen--or didn't, actually.

Maybe it was because Orlando and Keira announced that they weren't interested in any more sequels and so their storyline needed to be brought to a reasonable conclusion. Actually, if you stand back and look at the grand picture, it's boy-has girl, boy-looses girl, boy-gets girl back--as in the swashbuckler of the 30's and 40's (as you so skillfully referenced.) That line of thinking would have worked, if only Errol Flynn and Maureen O'Hara had been involved. Unfortunately for the storyline, Clark Gable got cast as the 'other man' and none of it made any sense.

It was disappointing what was left out. After all the build up and hype(true, most of it at the hands of the fandom, if you really stand back and look)you did get left with the odd feeling of "Isn't there one more act?" I went to the premier at Disney and the movie there didn't have that last little snippet at the end....and I left feeling a little better than when I had seen it later. It's a happily-ever after stroy, with a little twist, but certainly straight out of the romance novels....the less skillfully written ones.

The bigger tragedy is the reaction here, in the fandom and what has been done in the wake. It's not a pretty picture. Unfortunately, there had been few that have put their best foot forward, and, as you so skillfully observed, there has been a frenzy to make it all right, erase Will and forge ahead. A few, like you and LOTS, to your credit, have had the wisdom to stand back and allow some time and space...which helps strengthen the j/e relationship. I struggle with Jack going off happily ever after with an 18 year old. Just doesn't work for me.

I'm sure there were lots of dynamics going on behind the scenes, most of which we'll probably never know. It's sort of interesting that a large part of blame has been put on JD, because he's resistant to being the guy who gets the girl. We should also recall that it was Keira who campaigned deligently for 'the kiss', which was the launch pad for the j/e shipper to go out of orbit. Subtract that one little moment from DMC, and you have an entirely different scenario. It would be interesting to know when that was shot in relation to the remainder of the scenes, DMC and AWE.

Not to dismiss it, nor those who have formed their own comm, but I found the Davy Jones/Calypso love affair a little too drawn out. I know, somewhere in the melee, that it became the cornerstone of the movie, but I drug just a bit. Maybe I was just being impatient to get back to the 'good stuff.' I can almost agree with those who claim Barbossa stole the movie. He did shine. It was fun to watch two scene stealers battling it out. (BTW, spoke with Geoffrey Rush and his wife going out of the movie; nice man)

Not to waver off the subject, but the conjectures that Jack would give up on regaining the Pearl, just because it's been too much trouble I find really laughable! Clearly, these are people who don't understand men and their ships--either then or now. I suggested it to my husband, who has sailed for 40 years, and he almost choked on his donut.

Have lots more to say.....but I'm chomping away your time....this is fun to have someone 'rational' to communicate with...wow!....Kerry

[sparrowsupport]

Fifteen times?! That's incredible. I bow to your superior patience and theater-going skills. I loose my temper when people answer their cellphones mid-movie.

I agree with your take on AWE and your apt comparison to the movie stars, though I admire Errol Flynn more than I do Orlando Bloom, though I have hopes that he'll mature into a fine actor later in life.

In terms of the over film, I actually feel that the greatest disappointment was not Sparrabeth, but what they left out. Having read the portions of the script and being caught up with the fandom madness, I missed not seeing Jack's back story, or Norrington's return to redemption. Like Davy Jones, I felt like the film was missing its heart. I also didn't agree with the slapstick shtick that they added, even though admittedly, I did laugh.

You spoke to Geoffry Rush? I'm sincerely jealous!! He does carry the film in quite a few places, especially during the wedding sequence and Barbossa's sparring with Jack in the first film was what made it stand out to me.

Now, to arms because I actually disagree with you here, but it's only because I have a different take on Jack than you do. I don't doubt that Jack went after the Pearl after AWE, but as far as his being able to give it up--if the circumstances were right and dire enough--I think it's not beyond the realm of plausibility. We've seen him refer to it as "only a ship". Also, I'm reminded of a quote from the writers when they mentioned that due to the deal that Jack had made with Jones, the Pearl had stopped representing freedom to him, and had begun to resemble a form of slavery. I find it interesting that Jack is usually chained to his ship in some form, and this is especially the case in Purgatory, which ironically, involves his ship. Some might say that yes, his purgatory is that his ship is trapped on land, but I think there's more to it than that.

It's true that men of any era never fully outgrow their need for their ships, or in some cases muscle cars (I have a dear friend who refuses to give up his 1960s Camero for that very reason), but Jack's ties to the Pearl are more representative of his ideals about Freedom. Those ideals will never dissipate, but as a person gets older, idealism molds to life experience and becomes tailored to the individual. I suppose it becomes seasoned, meaning that as time progresses, he'll have been constantly re-evaluated what freedom is, and what his ship represents.

Whew, now who's shooting the breeze? Debating Jack is of course, a chicken-egg situation but it's fun to hear an informed opinion.

Cheers!

[compassrose7577]

Hmmmm...well, okay, I can see your point re: the Pearl. Maybe if we look at the Pearl in the light of being part of the persona Jack has had to adopt and adapt after Beckett brought on his downfall. I've always seen Jack as the reluctant pirate, but living it to the max, as best he can, because he's been given little choice. And part of that 'role' is his ship. Just as he rose from his ashes, the Pearl was raised from hers. He sees her as an anchor--or chain--because she's a part of that 'bad world.' If he were ever to be able to find a way out of the pirate life, I suspect he would allow the Pearl her own resurrection as well.

I think he was referring to the Pearl as 'only a ship' because he was trying to convince himself that he was doing the right thing. Worrying about the Pearl only complicated a very difficult decision---and he was about to go down with that ship, chained or no. He said it to Gibbs to help sell that they were to abandon ship; he knew he needed to get everyone off.

I think the real freedom he seeks is to be himself once again--the good man in the good world. He uses it as his mantra because it helps play into the role he's playing, and because, deep inside, it is indeed what he wants. Maybe that's why his compass gets so confused.

"Informed opinion?" Hmmm...not sure I quite qualify for that. I've never seen the scripts everyone keeps refering to and I've never had the time to read TnT's postings and site...so I'm blissfully ignorant. (sigh)

Yes, but it is GREAT to be able to discuss, disagree and still discuss. I think I just found a little piece of heaven!!!

[sparrowsupport]

Ok, this is something I've actually been mulling for sometime. The writers have said that each of the movies has a character who is featured. COTBP is meant to be Elizabeth's story, DMC Jack's and AWE is Will's. Obviously, those stories aren't exclusive to the indivdiual movie--the characters continue to develop and arch during the course of the trilogy. What I can't help but wonder is: are the stories told from that individual character's point of view?

To me, the pirates trilogy never seemed like one, over-arching conclusive story from start to finish. For example, when taken with COTBP and AWE, DMC seems a little like the red-headed step child of the series. Which made me wonder, are the events as they are seen in DMC, taken from Jack's perspective with a little of his bias involved? So, is Elizabeth's behavior towards him seen from Jack's perspective in which it seems as though she's very nearly succumbing to his charms?

Is AWE the story as told from Will Turner's perspective in which he finally wins the love of his life, and becomes the Captain of the Flying Dutchman? Which may explain why some of the character development felt...thin..Can we trust that as being the whole story, in other words?

I know this is sort of an off the wall rambling, but since you have an informed opinion, and don't argue--you do: what are your thoughts on the subject?

And this is something that has been bugging me from the beginning. If you were Davy Jones, and you wanted to inflict the cruelest type of pain on a man who is your enemy, (Will Turner, let's say) wouldn't you stab the woman he loves and let him watch her die? I don't know, maybe that makes me more of a monster than Davy Jones...hmmmm...I think I feel a few tentacles growing in as we speak...