Christian Bait
I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but I got in a long argument with a Christian - a Christian Political Scientist, no less. He had a lovely biblical name - Noah.
Now there are three religions I really fucking hate, in order of increasing biblical wrath:
3. Catholic
2. Islam
1. Fundamentalist Christians
He also evinced a rabid fear of socialism in any form. The context was Obama's healthcare plan for America. He posted a long and interesting account from an old Austrian woman who lived through the Anschluss - the German takeover of Austria that preceded World War II. The Austrians looked at prosperous socialist Nazi Germany, thought about their own country's economic woes, and asked to be annexed. Bizarrely, at the end, Noah concluded with: "America Truly is the Greatest Country in the World. Don't Let Freedom Slip Away."
I discovered that the reason for this non-sequitur was that as Austria had started off with socialism, and ended up a dictatorship under Hitler, that America's adoption of a "socialist" healthcare system would have the same end result. Logic, "Fundie" style.
Here are the comments, including my own (JD and Spacetweek). For extra lulz, I've bolded the really funny bits.
analexpulsive said... **[Analexpulsive is some Canadian guy]**
So because Austria was seduced by Hitler, America is the greatest country in the world? I'm not convinced.
May 13, 2010 8:21 PM
Noah Beach said...
No because this country is not a socialist country as of now. It is headed in that direction though. What the lady is saying is beware of the warning signs because it snuck up on her. Everything seemed great at first, but then it was worse than before. If your not convinced by this story to shun socialism your probably a liberal who supports socialism and redistribution of wealth.
May 13, 2010 8:25 PM
spacetweek said...
Noah, the article above is very interesting and moving. However, the conclusion you come to just doesn't follow.
The "socialism" that was introduced into Austria that she describes is actually totalitarianism. In the 20th century there have been many poor examples of socialism, such as in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union, Chairman Mao's China, North Korea, Cuba, and some other Latin American countries.
However, more mild forms of socialism have thrived in other countries. Most notable are Sweden and Switzerland, and there is also Norway, Canada, France, and Spain. The socialism found in those countries offers universal free healthcare (which is a human right), no homelessness, very low crime (because a lot of crime is motivated by differences in income), and childcare frequently is free also.
Do you think that is a bad thing? If so, why? Surely you'd like to live in a society with no homeless or significant poverty, little obesity and high educational achievement? Maybe America could do with a dose of moderate socialism.
May 18, 2010 7:17 AM
Noah Beach said...
Oh space..only a liberal non believer in Jesus Christ would say those things. Why do I say that? Becuase it is the job of the Christian community to help those in need. Of course if the government didn't first take our money then we could give more of it to these institutions that truly want to help people. Liberals want universal health care because you are afraid to die. You feel as though capitalism prevents the government from finding cures to save us all. Those of us who have a savior in heaven are not afraid to die. No matter what we do we will die. Get off the free healthcare thing. Someone has to pay for that free healthcare. I am in the healthcare sector and I do not and will not work for free. How would I support my family? Socialism will die just like all of Europe is dying. You can't support free programs for long. Eventually there are no more wealthy people to take money from. Only Jesus can solve this world's problems. No governmnet or person outside of Jesus can save this world. Get over your ideological self.
May 18, 2010 9:53 AM
JD said...
Noah, I think you wrote the above when you just came out of church and were buzzing on the love of Jesus - because it makes absolutely no sense. Can you answer my points about totalitarianism above please?
Some points on your response:
- Christians helping those in need: Many religious organisations, such as the Catholic Church, have proven themselves not to be trustworthy in this respect - and often discriminatory in who they will help. The public healthcare system is non-discriminatory and far more accountable.
- "Free healthcare" doesn't mean that the employees aren't paid. That's volunteerism. You'd still be paid for the work you do. It's just that the public don't pay up front, but they do in taxes. This ensures that everyone gets access, not just the rich.
- You're saying that people shouldn't have health care because they're going to die anyway. I'm gonna call your bluff. So if you died right now, you wouldn't seek attention? You're OK with dying right at this moment?
You see, the problem with being a Christian is that you don't place such a high value on living this life because you think a better one awaits you. Non-religious people accept that this life is all there is and everything must be done to enhance people's enjoyment of it. Society has shown that they agree with this latter view, even if they are themselves religious.
May 21, 2010 6:52 AM
Noah Beach said...
Here are responses to your points in order asked:
-There are people who abuse services, and then there are people who truly need services. Non profits are good at figuring out the difference. My grandmother for instance gives away items at her church to help the poor and and they know the ones who abuse there giving and the ones who need it. There are a lot of people out there who simply want free services and never want to contribute even when given the opportunity. If we lived in a perfect world this would not be a problem. However, we live in a sinful world and simply people will abuse free services by the government. For isntance section 8 housing. I have see a lot of people shacking up together in section 8 housing when they were not supposed to. They get to live super cheap off the tax payer dime. They have absolutely no will to ever get out of that situation, because they are lazy. A lot of people are content with not having much but not having to work. They just hang out all day all at the expense of the tax payer. This is why non profits are good. Non profits must be efficient to stay afloat. Help those who you can truly help by getting them on a path out of poverty. This means getting them an education through gauranteed loans (which is what I am doing), providing food, shelter if need be, and helping with a temporary job through school.
-The public doesn't always pay in taxes. Right now only about 50% of the population actually pays taxes. At the end of the year the other 50% gets refunds to zero it out. I will detail how to save the healthcare system in a post called Saving Healthcare. Please read it.
-Yes I am OK with dying right now. I am saved by the Grace of God. Jesus is my savior. There is nothing to fear for me, and I will spend eternity with Jesus after this short life is over. Jesus knows the time and place he will take me.
May 21, 2010 7:17 AM
Noah Beach said...
Giving to the Needy
(long bible quotes)
Prayer
(long bible quotes)
May 21, 2010 7:19 AM
Noah Beach said...
Fasting
(long bible quotes)
Treasures in Heaven
(long bible quotes)
Do Not Worry
(long bible quotes)
May 21, 2010 7:19 AM
Noah Beach said...
Let me finally respond to your last comment. The difference between you and me is night and day. My faith like all other Christians drive me to feel this life is meaningless. It is a short life until we are ot be with our Lord and Savior. Your life is all you have and means everything to you because you know you will die. You have no hope for what lies ahead. What lies ahead terrifies you because you truly do not know what lies ahead. You have faith that NOTHING lies ahead. It takes more faith to believe in nothing than me believing in Jesus. The complexity of this universe and simply how your body functions should let you know there is a creator. He is God. He is the Almighty. He is the redeamer. He came down in the form of a man Jesus. He died on the cross and became the final sacrifice for our sins. Faith in Jesus saves. That is all that is required is faith. The peace Christians have is beyond your comprehension. We have no worries.
The Bible Versus above came from Mathew 6 located here:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Mat&c=6&t=NIVP&x=6&y=2
I hope someday you will give your life over to Christ. You will find great peace and satisfaction with the relationship you will develop.
May 21, 2010 7:29 AM
Now there are three religions I really fucking hate, in order of increasing biblical wrath:
3. Catholic
2. Islam
1. Fundamentalist Christians
He also evinced a rabid fear of socialism in any form. The context was Obama's healthcare plan for America. He posted a long and interesting account from an old Austrian woman who lived through the Anschluss - the German takeover of Austria that preceded World War II. The Austrians looked at prosperous socialist Nazi Germany, thought about their own country's economic woes, and asked to be annexed. Bizarrely, at the end, Noah concluded with: "America Truly is the Greatest Country in the World. Don't Let Freedom Slip Away."
I discovered that the reason for this non-sequitur was that as Austria had started off with socialism, and ended up a dictatorship under Hitler, that America's adoption of a "socialist" healthcare system would have the same end result. Logic, "Fundie" style.
Here are the comments, including my own (JD and Spacetweek). For extra lulz, I've bolded the really funny bits.
analexpulsive said... **[Analexpulsive is some Canadian guy]**
So because Austria was seduced by Hitler, America is the greatest country in the world? I'm not convinced.
May 13, 2010 8:21 PM
Noah Beach said...
No because this country is not a socialist country as of now. It is headed in that direction though. What the lady is saying is beware of the warning signs because it snuck up on her. Everything seemed great at first, but then it was worse than before. If your not convinced by this story to shun socialism your probably a liberal who supports socialism and redistribution of wealth.
May 13, 2010 8:25 PM
spacetweek said...
Noah, the article above is very interesting and moving. However, the conclusion you come to just doesn't follow.
The "socialism" that was introduced into Austria that she describes is actually totalitarianism. In the 20th century there have been many poor examples of socialism, such as in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union, Chairman Mao's China, North Korea, Cuba, and some other Latin American countries.
However, more mild forms of socialism have thrived in other countries. Most notable are Sweden and Switzerland, and there is also Norway, Canada, France, and Spain. The socialism found in those countries offers universal free healthcare (which is a human right), no homelessness, very low crime (because a lot of crime is motivated by differences in income), and childcare frequently is free also.
Do you think that is a bad thing? If so, why? Surely you'd like to live in a society with no homeless or significant poverty, little obesity and high educational achievement? Maybe America could do with a dose of moderate socialism.
May 18, 2010 7:17 AM
Noah Beach said...
Oh space..only a liberal non believer in Jesus Christ would say those things. Why do I say that? Becuase it is the job of the Christian community to help those in need. Of course if the government didn't first take our money then we could give more of it to these institutions that truly want to help people. Liberals want universal health care because you are afraid to die. You feel as though capitalism prevents the government from finding cures to save us all. Those of us who have a savior in heaven are not afraid to die. No matter what we do we will die. Get off the free healthcare thing. Someone has to pay for that free healthcare. I am in the healthcare sector and I do not and will not work for free. How would I support my family? Socialism will die just like all of Europe is dying. You can't support free programs for long. Eventually there are no more wealthy people to take money from. Only Jesus can solve this world's problems. No governmnet or person outside of Jesus can save this world. Get over your ideological self.
May 18, 2010 9:53 AM
JD said...
Noah, I think you wrote the above when you just came out of church and were buzzing on the love of Jesus - because it makes absolutely no sense. Can you answer my points about totalitarianism above please?
Some points on your response:
- Christians helping those in need: Many religious organisations, such as the Catholic Church, have proven themselves not to be trustworthy in this respect - and often discriminatory in who they will help. The public healthcare system is non-discriminatory and far more accountable.
- "Free healthcare" doesn't mean that the employees aren't paid. That's volunteerism. You'd still be paid for the work you do. It's just that the public don't pay up front, but they do in taxes. This ensures that everyone gets access, not just the rich.
- You're saying that people shouldn't have health care because they're going to die anyway. I'm gonna call your bluff. So if you died right now, you wouldn't seek attention? You're OK with dying right at this moment?
You see, the problem with being a Christian is that you don't place such a high value on living this life because you think a better one awaits you. Non-religious people accept that this life is all there is and everything must be done to enhance people's enjoyment of it. Society has shown that they agree with this latter view, even if they are themselves religious.
May 21, 2010 6:52 AM
Noah Beach said...
Here are responses to your points in order asked:
-There are people who abuse services, and then there are people who truly need services. Non profits are good at figuring out the difference. My grandmother for instance gives away items at her church to help the poor and and they know the ones who abuse there giving and the ones who need it. There are a lot of people out there who simply want free services and never want to contribute even when given the opportunity. If we lived in a perfect world this would not be a problem. However, we live in a sinful world and simply people will abuse free services by the government. For isntance section 8 housing. I have see a lot of people shacking up together in section 8 housing when they were not supposed to. They get to live super cheap off the tax payer dime. They have absolutely no will to ever get out of that situation, because they are lazy. A lot of people are content with not having much but not having to work. They just hang out all day all at the expense of the tax payer. This is why non profits are good. Non profits must be efficient to stay afloat. Help those who you can truly help by getting them on a path out of poverty. This means getting them an education through gauranteed loans (which is what I am doing), providing food, shelter if need be, and helping with a temporary job through school.
-The public doesn't always pay in taxes. Right now only about 50% of the population actually pays taxes. At the end of the year the other 50% gets refunds to zero it out. I will detail how to save the healthcare system in a post called Saving Healthcare. Please read it.
-Yes I am OK with dying right now. I am saved by the Grace of God. Jesus is my savior. There is nothing to fear for me, and I will spend eternity with Jesus after this short life is over. Jesus knows the time and place he will take me.
May 21, 2010 7:17 AM
Noah Beach said...
Giving to the Needy
(long bible quotes)
Prayer
(long bible quotes)
May 21, 2010 7:19 AM
Noah Beach said...
Fasting
(long bible quotes)
Treasures in Heaven
(long bible quotes)
Do Not Worry
(long bible quotes)
May 21, 2010 7:19 AM
Noah Beach said...
Let me finally respond to your last comment. The difference between you and me is night and day. My faith like all other Christians drive me to feel this life is meaningless. It is a short life until we are ot be with our Lord and Savior. Your life is all you have and means everything to you because you know you will die. You have no hope for what lies ahead. What lies ahead terrifies you because you truly do not know what lies ahead. You have faith that NOTHING lies ahead. It takes more faith to believe in nothing than me believing in Jesus. The complexity of this universe and simply how your body functions should let you know there is a creator. He is God. He is the Almighty. He is the redeamer. He came down in the form of a man Jesus. He died on the cross and became the final sacrifice for our sins. Faith in Jesus saves. That is all that is required is faith. The peace Christians have is beyond your comprehension. We have no worries.
The Bible Versus above came from Mathew 6 located here:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Mat&c=6&t=NIVP&x=6&y=2
I hope someday you will give your life over to Christ. You will find great peace and satisfaction with the relationship you will develop.
May 21, 2010 7:29 AM