I knew this was going to ruin my day.
Woke up this morning to find this in my e-mail.
[Sonne]:
It has been said that the primary role of a husband is to protect his wife from their children.
A story. Many years ago at a Christmas gathering at your grandparents’ home in Lebanon, I heard Matthew mouth off to Aunt Connie. Grandpa heard him, turned to Matthew, and said: “Don’t you ever talk to my daughter that way!” I found that impressive.
What you said to your mother and my wife last Saturday falls within that context. My anger at and disappointment with you goes far beyond words, but I will try.
You used to speak with disgust over the way your sisters dissed their mother and in so doing hurt her deeply. What you have done to your mother has hurt her far more than Shannon and Martha ever did. She is now three-for-three with the children she adopted and loved. This pain of a mother rejected by all of her children has affected her more than can be imagined.
The words that affected me most deeply were hers to you: “But this is who I am.” Your mother is a Christian, one committed to loving and serving Jesus Christ. It is who she is. She has continued to love and respect you despite your commitment to paganism, even though this choice by you deeply pains her. How dare you offer her no less! Your bigotry against Christians has gone one step too far! You, the supposed tolerant one, are nothing but a hypocrite, no matter what you profess.
This is your mother, not some stranger off the street-the person who raised you and loved you unconditionally, even when you did not return that love. Any mother, and especially this one, deserves better!
Your cardinal rule for life is “Do no harm.” What a joke!
You reject Christianity and Christians, but you don’t reject the good gifts (given from genuine love and concern) that come from Christianity. What an ugly response to kindness! What a lack of gratitude and appreciation. Would you act more kindly if she were to treat you as Mike’s mother does. Or even as Rick does. You need to get your priorities of life straightened out.
A mother deserves special latitude, simply by being a mother. But your mother does in particular. The one thing that never stopped, no matter what you did, was her love for you. She tolerated words and actions by you that went totally against everything she is and believes, yet she never stopped loving you. Your intolerance of her beliefs and her actions that come from those beliefs is astounding within that context.
Family relationship is not a smorgasbord. One can’t pick and choose. Your mother is who she is as much as you are who you are. She deserves to have the right to live her life authentically with her grandson. It is who she is. You have no right to judge her actions. As a member of your family and as your mother, she deserves room to function without your judgment and imposed restrictions.
Finally, let me speak as a person who knows something about child development. The age of discernment comes at different times for different children. You cannot magically decide when that is. Jake may already be entering his, because he is very sensitive and bright. Lest you continue your hypocrisy, I suggest you allow his discernment to function at this time. Put your actions where your mouth is. Give him the right to choose, which you have so ardently professed and now reject when the rubber hits the road. Your hypocrisy is so blatant it sickens me!
Another thing. Any kind of faith or belief ‘decisions’ made before reaching the age of discernment are inconsequential in the long run. You are the poster child!
You not only hurt your mother deeply, you are also hurting Jake. He loved God Squad so much. It gave him such happiness. It is a far cry from Child Evangelism, which I reject as well. It is far more innocuous than you are imagining.
Wrong decision, girl. Wrong actions based on the decision.
I don’t need a response, especially one that rationalizes away everything that has been said. You spoke. Now I have spoken-on behalf of your mother. We’re even.
Dad
Wow. Just... wow. Where to even start. First, let's get something clear: What I said to my mother last Saturday was, paraphrased, "I'd rather Jake didn't go to church because when he brings it home with him it makes his father and I uncomfortable". Jake is four - he is not a teenager who is capable of making his own decisions about this. I did not criticize my mom being a Christian, I didn't ask her to change anything about herself, I said to her that if Jake just visits on Wednesdays and Saturdays it doesn't even need to be an issue. I have HEARD what my sisters have said about my mother, and I'd wager it goes far beyond what they've even said to her face. There is absolutely no fucking way a very faltering request that he not go to church compares. None at all.
He makes it sound like I took her to task somehow when in reality I didn't want to have the conversation at all and tried to tip-toe around it the best I could. I may have failed to be tactful but I was not being angry or aggressive or even particularly assertive. So acting like I gleefully reached into my mom's chest and ripped her heart out is just mendacity and dishonesty.
I did not reject her either. I love my mom. I just asked that she not take my son to church. Let's be realistic here - if he was HER son and she asked, "could you not take him to pagan rituals? It makes me uncomfortable when he comes home loudly singing songs about Hekate when he doesn't know what they mean," I'd understand. But then again, I have the MINORITY religion, so I'm accustomed to people looking sideways at me. My religion could actually be used against me in custody and divorce proceedings, should that ever happen, or even in criminal proceedings. I hope y'all will forgive me for not providing links, I don't have the patience right now, but The Wild Hunt has all of them.
My commitment to paganism pains my mom deeply? Considering Christians believe anyone who doesn't follow their God goes to Hell, I'll buy that. My mom's nice, she wouldn't want me to go to Hell, fair enough, but I'm a grown-ass adult and I make my own decisions. How about if we talk about how their constant prayer that God will change my heart is actually an assault on my free will? Let's talk about that. Or let's talk about how they consistently belittle my choices by saying things like, "You're not far from the kingdom" and "I still have hope for you" and oh yeah, "We're praying for you whether you like it or not." Whatever, player.
My prejudice against Christians is something I'm not going to argue, but I'm not sure I'd call it bigotry. I know bringing in dictionary definitions is an auto-loss on the internet, but just for reference sake, bigot: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.
I have my prejudices, but I'm not obstinately devoted to them. I stretch and chip at them fairly constantly, actually, for the sake of actual people. I don't think I treat Christians with intolerance, though I won't argue hatred. They're the majority - what's not to tolerate? What gets me here is that my parents expect a pass that they wouldn't give to ANY OTHER RELIGION. If someone was taking Jake to a mosque and I said I'd rather he didn't because it made me a little uncomfortable, I'm pretty sure they'd understand completely. The irony is that I would be perfectly comfortable with him going to a mosque. This entire argument is basically a dismissal of my experiences and Mike's experiences with the church, which is significant because there's more of that in the next paragraphs.
As for my cardinal rule being 'Do No Harm', I believe that, but I also believe it's impossible to live without doing any harm. I have a right to protect myself and care for my family. Asking that Jake not go to church this early is not doing anyone harm. I understand my mom's feelings are hurt, but frankly, she's taking this way too personally. I didn't ask her to stop praying over dinner, I just asked if we could arrange Jake's visits so they aren't on Sunday morning.
I do reject Christianity. I try not to reject Christians when they're not assholes. But rejecting the 'good gifts' that come from Christianity? What fucking good gifts? All I've gotten from Christianity over the years is pain, judgment, a deep-abiding sense of my own worthlessness, and a whole lot of rage. What I've gotten from my MOTHER is a different story, but I give her more credit than you do, Dad, because I believe she'd love me even if she hadn't been a Christian. Because, not being a Christian, I don't believe people are basically evil, and that is one of the ideas that first led me to doubt Christianity. Remember the story of Noah's Ark from my last entry? See, the Bible says things like "They were all evil so we wiped them out" and I'm supposed to take that on faith, but how are you seriously going to tell me that in the whole world at that time, or among the tribes Israel conquered, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY loved their spouse or their kids or their parents or their siblings, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY was living a simple and fairly happy life, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY had anything of value in their lives, including relationships, that would be any true loss if it were all taken away. That is bullshit of the highest order. Christianity expects me to dismiss the loss of human lives because it was a long time ago and they were different from me. I say that in this world, every human being is not so different from me. That's called empathy. If my stepfather had an iota of it, he might consider that maybe I'm upset over that conversation with my mom too. It's not like I cried for an hour after I got off the phone with her. It's not like I've been anxious and depressed for the last two days agonizing over whether to call her or whether she'd call me and hating the silence between us. Of course not. I'm a bad child, that's all there is to it. No further investigation needed, is there? That's the 'good gift' of Christianity - righteous judgment of others.
Fuck that.
Also, I don't have to tolerate shit that hurts me, thanks.
I already covered that I'm not asking my mother not to live her life authentically. Seriously, we just schedule his visits Wednesday and Saturday night. I pick him up Sunday Morning or late Saturday night. THERE IS NO ISSUE. She goes to church, he doesn't, all is well with the world. This is more or less the same fucking schedule he's been on with a couple hours adjusted, how is that leaving her 'no room to function'?
As for the bit about child development... holy fuck that pisses me off. Where was your fucking knowledge of child development when you were ripping me a new asshole for being an eight-year-old who didn't care what you did all day? When you were criticizing me because a ten-year-old didn't know how to be a 'friend' to a fifty-year-old? Can you imagine how I felt when I found out later that my self-absorption at those ages was actually totally developmentally normal? Do you know what I've had to go through in order to accept the fact that you were wrong to demand those things of me? I was very bright too, but I had a child's perspective and a child's understanding. A child's perspective for many years is that school = the world. That's why so many kids commit suicide over what's going on at school. That's why I very nearly did. Friends also = the world. Parents =/= the world because they don't exist on your level... they don't speak the same language or have the same cultural references. Until you get older and learn how to merge those things, which is why kids have a lot more luck making friends with their parents, generally, when they're out of their teenage years of trying to establish their own identities as adults. So fuck you and your child development. What you're really saying is that I don't know my own son. I stayed home with him all day every day for five years. He doesn't fucking get Christianity. Okay? He's very bright, but he has a child's perspective and a child's understanding, and I'm not going to make the same mistake with him that you made with me. But even if that weren't the case and he was some kind of magical reincarnated saint, he's my son. This early in his life, I will decide what influences him to the extent that I am able. As he gets older and is able to discuss things with me or even go behind my back, like I had to do with you in order to explore the things I was interested in, then I'll let go. Right now, he's doing it to make his grandparents happy. I don't put that onus on him in regards to Paganism. He spends much more time learning about your religion than mine, so lay off.
As for me being the poster child, I think you'd be upset if you knew how early I knew in my heart that I was a witch. Just saying, coming to paganism was a long process, but the very first time I saw it, I felt a deep click and I KNEW. That's what we talk about when we say if someone is meant to be pagan they'll find their way there. That's why we seldom proselytize.
As for denying Jake joy, I'm not going to doubt his ability to remember God Squad next time he goes to Lakeside. He's got an excellent memory. I am going to offer that provided with other activities, he won't miss God Squad. So let's not pretend I'm denying him some great happiness, please. He went for one week. He's been talking about preschool all YEAR. Next year, if this issue arises, I'll be happy to explain it to him and take whatever heat may come, but here is the truth of the matter - having my son run around my house singing praise hymns was painful to ME. It hurt ME. It caused ME to have trigger-reactions. It pissed his papa off as well. If he was older I'd probably react differently but he's not. He's four, and all he knows is that it makes his grandparents smile when he sings those songs and it makes his mama cringe, and since he can be a brat, he sometimes likes making mama cringe.
Finally... you don't need a response, especially one that 'rationalizes away' everything? Wow. That's... that's so damn convenient for you I don't know what to say. Except... how very 'Christian'. "We don't need dissenting opinions, we know we're right." Yeah, that basically fits how I remember the church.
You want to talk about my dishonesty, let's talk about yours - this entire screed is a smokescreen. You want to take Jake to church because you're convinced it's the only way to 'save' him. That's why this is such a big issue. If it was just a scheduling thing, you wouldn't be flipping out like this. You're angry at me because I'm lessening the chance that your grandson will 'succeed' where your daughter has 'failed'. I'm sorry. You're just going to have to fucking get used to the fact that there are non-Christians in the family. If Jake picks Christianity when he's older, I'll still cringe, but I assume by that point he'll have enough respect for my boundaries that when I tell him about my bad experiences and explain this is why it makes mama cringe, he'll respond appropriately. I won't expect him to live his life in the closet like I don't expect you to, which is pretty fucking generous I think, since you stuffed me in the broom closet for most of my teenage years and didn't allow me to practice under your roof. I'll just ask him to please keep in mind his mother's feelings.
I tried to keep my mother's feelings in mind. I'm sorry she took a request to not take him to church as a personal attack. I realize she's deeply invested in her religion - so am I. I didn't make the request out of malice or hatred, I made it because I don't want to feel like breaking down and crying every time my son opens his mouth. But you have a history of denying my experiences and my feelings on these issues, so I'm not the least bit surprised that you'd dismiss my desires like this. So, y'know. Fuck you. Seriously.
-- Sonne
[Sonne]:
It has been said that the primary role of a husband is to protect his wife from their children.
A story. Many years ago at a Christmas gathering at your grandparents’ home in Lebanon, I heard Matthew mouth off to Aunt Connie. Grandpa heard him, turned to Matthew, and said: “Don’t you ever talk to my daughter that way!” I found that impressive.
What you said to your mother and my wife last Saturday falls within that context. My anger at and disappointment with you goes far beyond words, but I will try.
You used to speak with disgust over the way your sisters dissed their mother and in so doing hurt her deeply. What you have done to your mother has hurt her far more than Shannon and Martha ever did. She is now three-for-three with the children she adopted and loved. This pain of a mother rejected by all of her children has affected her more than can be imagined.
The words that affected me most deeply were hers to you: “But this is who I am.” Your mother is a Christian, one committed to loving and serving Jesus Christ. It is who she is. She has continued to love and respect you despite your commitment to paganism, even though this choice by you deeply pains her. How dare you offer her no less! Your bigotry against Christians has gone one step too far! You, the supposed tolerant one, are nothing but a hypocrite, no matter what you profess.
This is your mother, not some stranger off the street-the person who raised you and loved you unconditionally, even when you did not return that love. Any mother, and especially this one, deserves better!
Your cardinal rule for life is “Do no harm.” What a joke!
You reject Christianity and Christians, but you don’t reject the good gifts (given from genuine love and concern) that come from Christianity. What an ugly response to kindness! What a lack of gratitude and appreciation. Would you act more kindly if she were to treat you as Mike’s mother does. Or even as Rick does. You need to get your priorities of life straightened out.
A mother deserves special latitude, simply by being a mother. But your mother does in particular. The one thing that never stopped, no matter what you did, was her love for you. She tolerated words and actions by you that went totally against everything she is and believes, yet she never stopped loving you. Your intolerance of her beliefs and her actions that come from those beliefs is astounding within that context.
Family relationship is not a smorgasbord. One can’t pick and choose. Your mother is who she is as much as you are who you are. She deserves to have the right to live her life authentically with her grandson. It is who she is. You have no right to judge her actions. As a member of your family and as your mother, she deserves room to function without your judgment and imposed restrictions.
Finally, let me speak as a person who knows something about child development. The age of discernment comes at different times for different children. You cannot magically decide when that is. Jake may already be entering his, because he is very sensitive and bright. Lest you continue your hypocrisy, I suggest you allow his discernment to function at this time. Put your actions where your mouth is. Give him the right to choose, which you have so ardently professed and now reject when the rubber hits the road. Your hypocrisy is so blatant it sickens me!
Another thing. Any kind of faith or belief ‘decisions’ made before reaching the age of discernment are inconsequential in the long run. You are the poster child!
You not only hurt your mother deeply, you are also hurting Jake. He loved God Squad so much. It gave him such happiness. It is a far cry from Child Evangelism, which I reject as well. It is far more innocuous than you are imagining.
Wrong decision, girl. Wrong actions based on the decision.
I don’t need a response, especially one that rationalizes away everything that has been said. You spoke. Now I have spoken-on behalf of your mother. We’re even.
Dad
Wow. Just... wow. Where to even start. First, let's get something clear: What I said to my mother last Saturday was, paraphrased, "I'd rather Jake didn't go to church because when he brings it home with him it makes his father and I uncomfortable". Jake is four - he is not a teenager who is capable of making his own decisions about this. I did not criticize my mom being a Christian, I didn't ask her to change anything about herself, I said to her that if Jake just visits on Wednesdays and Saturdays it doesn't even need to be an issue. I have HEARD what my sisters have said about my mother, and I'd wager it goes far beyond what they've even said to her face. There is absolutely no fucking way a very faltering request that he not go to church compares. None at all.
He makes it sound like I took her to task somehow when in reality I didn't want to have the conversation at all and tried to tip-toe around it the best I could. I may have failed to be tactful but I was not being angry or aggressive or even particularly assertive. So acting like I gleefully reached into my mom's chest and ripped her heart out is just mendacity and dishonesty.
I did not reject her either. I love my mom. I just asked that she not take my son to church. Let's be realistic here - if he was HER son and she asked, "could you not take him to pagan rituals? It makes me uncomfortable when he comes home loudly singing songs about Hekate when he doesn't know what they mean," I'd understand. But then again, I have the MINORITY religion, so I'm accustomed to people looking sideways at me. My religion could actually be used against me in custody and divorce proceedings, should that ever happen, or even in criminal proceedings. I hope y'all will forgive me for not providing links, I don't have the patience right now, but The Wild Hunt has all of them.
My commitment to paganism pains my mom deeply? Considering Christians believe anyone who doesn't follow their God goes to Hell, I'll buy that. My mom's nice, she wouldn't want me to go to Hell, fair enough, but I'm a grown-ass adult and I make my own decisions. How about if we talk about how their constant prayer that God will change my heart is actually an assault on my free will? Let's talk about that. Or let's talk about how they consistently belittle my choices by saying things like, "You're not far from the kingdom" and "I still have hope for you" and oh yeah, "We're praying for you whether you like it or not." Whatever, player.
My prejudice against Christians is something I'm not going to argue, but I'm not sure I'd call it bigotry. I know bringing in dictionary definitions is an auto-loss on the internet, but just for reference sake, bigot: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.
I have my prejudices, but I'm not obstinately devoted to them. I stretch and chip at them fairly constantly, actually, for the sake of actual people. I don't think I treat Christians with intolerance, though I won't argue hatred. They're the majority - what's not to tolerate? What gets me here is that my parents expect a pass that they wouldn't give to ANY OTHER RELIGION. If someone was taking Jake to a mosque and I said I'd rather he didn't because it made me a little uncomfortable, I'm pretty sure they'd understand completely. The irony is that I would be perfectly comfortable with him going to a mosque. This entire argument is basically a dismissal of my experiences and Mike's experiences with the church, which is significant because there's more of that in the next paragraphs.
As for my cardinal rule being 'Do No Harm', I believe that, but I also believe it's impossible to live without doing any harm. I have a right to protect myself and care for my family. Asking that Jake not go to church this early is not doing anyone harm. I understand my mom's feelings are hurt, but frankly, she's taking this way too personally. I didn't ask her to stop praying over dinner, I just asked if we could arrange Jake's visits so they aren't on Sunday morning.
I do reject Christianity. I try not to reject Christians when they're not assholes. But rejecting the 'good gifts' that come from Christianity? What fucking good gifts? All I've gotten from Christianity over the years is pain, judgment, a deep-abiding sense of my own worthlessness, and a whole lot of rage. What I've gotten from my MOTHER is a different story, but I give her more credit than you do, Dad, because I believe she'd love me even if she hadn't been a Christian. Because, not being a Christian, I don't believe people are basically evil, and that is one of the ideas that first led me to doubt Christianity. Remember the story of Noah's Ark from my last entry? See, the Bible says things like "They were all evil so we wiped them out" and I'm supposed to take that on faith, but how are you seriously going to tell me that in the whole world at that time, or among the tribes Israel conquered, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY loved their spouse or their kids or their parents or their siblings, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY was living a simple and fairly happy life, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY had anything of value in their lives, including relationships, that would be any true loss if it were all taken away. That is bullshit of the highest order. Christianity expects me to dismiss the loss of human lives because it was a long time ago and they were different from me. I say that in this world, every human being is not so different from me. That's called empathy. If my stepfather had an iota of it, he might consider that maybe I'm upset over that conversation with my mom too. It's not like I cried for an hour after I got off the phone with her. It's not like I've been anxious and depressed for the last two days agonizing over whether to call her or whether she'd call me and hating the silence between us. Of course not. I'm a bad child, that's all there is to it. No further investigation needed, is there? That's the 'good gift' of Christianity - righteous judgment of others.
Fuck that.
Also, I don't have to tolerate shit that hurts me, thanks.
I already covered that I'm not asking my mother not to live her life authentically. Seriously, we just schedule his visits Wednesday and Saturday night. I pick him up Sunday Morning or late Saturday night. THERE IS NO ISSUE. She goes to church, he doesn't, all is well with the world. This is more or less the same fucking schedule he's been on with a couple hours adjusted, how is that leaving her 'no room to function'?
As for the bit about child development... holy fuck that pisses me off. Where was your fucking knowledge of child development when you were ripping me a new asshole for being an eight-year-old who didn't care what you did all day? When you were criticizing me because a ten-year-old didn't know how to be a 'friend' to a fifty-year-old? Can you imagine how I felt when I found out later that my self-absorption at those ages was actually totally developmentally normal? Do you know what I've had to go through in order to accept the fact that you were wrong to demand those things of me? I was very bright too, but I had a child's perspective and a child's understanding. A child's perspective for many years is that school = the world. That's why so many kids commit suicide over what's going on at school. That's why I very nearly did. Friends also = the world. Parents =/= the world because they don't exist on your level... they don't speak the same language or have the same cultural references. Until you get older and learn how to merge those things, which is why kids have a lot more luck making friends with their parents, generally, when they're out of their teenage years of trying to establish their own identities as adults. So fuck you and your child development. What you're really saying is that I don't know my own son. I stayed home with him all day every day for five years. He doesn't fucking get Christianity. Okay? He's very bright, but he has a child's perspective and a child's understanding, and I'm not going to make the same mistake with him that you made with me. But even if that weren't the case and he was some kind of magical reincarnated saint, he's my son. This early in his life, I will decide what influences him to the extent that I am able. As he gets older and is able to discuss things with me or even go behind my back, like I had to do with you in order to explore the things I was interested in, then I'll let go. Right now, he's doing it to make his grandparents happy. I don't put that onus on him in regards to Paganism. He spends much more time learning about your religion than mine, so lay off.
As for me being the poster child, I think you'd be upset if you knew how early I knew in my heart that I was a witch. Just saying, coming to paganism was a long process, but the very first time I saw it, I felt a deep click and I KNEW. That's what we talk about when we say if someone is meant to be pagan they'll find their way there. That's why we seldom proselytize.
As for denying Jake joy, I'm not going to doubt his ability to remember God Squad next time he goes to Lakeside. He's got an excellent memory. I am going to offer that provided with other activities, he won't miss God Squad. So let's not pretend I'm denying him some great happiness, please. He went for one week. He's been talking about preschool all YEAR. Next year, if this issue arises, I'll be happy to explain it to him and take whatever heat may come, but here is the truth of the matter - having my son run around my house singing praise hymns was painful to ME. It hurt ME. It caused ME to have trigger-reactions. It pissed his papa off as well. If he was older I'd probably react differently but he's not. He's four, and all he knows is that it makes his grandparents smile when he sings those songs and it makes his mama cringe, and since he can be a brat, he sometimes likes making mama cringe.
Finally... you don't need a response, especially one that 'rationalizes away' everything? Wow. That's... that's so damn convenient for you I don't know what to say. Except... how very 'Christian'. "We don't need dissenting opinions, we know we're right." Yeah, that basically fits how I remember the church.
You want to talk about my dishonesty, let's talk about yours - this entire screed is a smokescreen. You want to take Jake to church because you're convinced it's the only way to 'save' him. That's why this is such a big issue. If it was just a scheduling thing, you wouldn't be flipping out like this. You're angry at me because I'm lessening the chance that your grandson will 'succeed' where your daughter has 'failed'. I'm sorry. You're just going to have to fucking get used to the fact that there are non-Christians in the family. If Jake picks Christianity when he's older, I'll still cringe, but I assume by that point he'll have enough respect for my boundaries that when I tell him about my bad experiences and explain this is why it makes mama cringe, he'll respond appropriately. I won't expect him to live his life in the closet like I don't expect you to, which is pretty fucking generous I think, since you stuffed me in the broom closet for most of my teenage years and didn't allow me to practice under your roof. I'll just ask him to please keep in mind his mother's feelings.
I tried to keep my mother's feelings in mind. I'm sorry she took a request to not take him to church as a personal attack. I realize she's deeply invested in her religion - so am I. I didn't make the request out of malice or hatred, I made it because I don't want to feel like breaking down and crying every time my son opens his mouth. But you have a history of denying my experiences and my feelings on these issues, so I'm not the least bit surprised that you'd dismiss my desires like this. So, y'know. Fuck you. Seriously.
-- Sonne