More Game of Thrones comments
So.... I still don't think much of Game of Thrones, but I did read summaries and watched some clips and kinda fell down a rabbit hole in terms of fic. LOL at me.
Here is one detailed comment regarding my (ethical) problems with the show and the books.
I also wish to apologize in advance for the heteronormative nature of this post -it is unfortunately difficult to avoid given the heteronormative nature of the TV show and the books. Another problem with this show which I haven't seen discussed at length is the general lack of LGBT characters, and the use of the bury your gays trope in this show (e.g. the Renly Baratheon and Loras Tyrell relationship).
I personally particularly liked the relationship between Jaime Lannister and Brienne of Tarth for some reason. What I did see of season 8 was actually rather awful (i.e., due to the awful dialogue and writing) and made me wonder what all the hoopla over this show was about (i.e., I believe the writing was likely much better in the seasons that were based off the books, because despite my many problems with the books GRRM does seem to be a competent writer).
I thought that the actors, in general, did a good job and really sold this relationship (IMHO).
I also really, really appreciated Lena Headey's portrayal of Cersei: one thing which bothers me (and I am of course perfectly willing to be corrected if I am wrong about this) that Cersei Lannister was simply a bad person/power hungry in the books, while being somewhat more nuanced in the TV series. One thing which bothers me about the apparent arc of Daenerys Targaryen (which may well have been a plot point which wound up in the show courtesy of GRR Martin) is that she becomes a mad tyrant herself. Therefore (note that I am excluding Sansa Stark from this commentary because she only became Queen of the North at the very end of the show and I am not certain this was planned by GRRM) yet another problem I have with this fictional universe is that there were TWO female leaders in the entirety of its history, and both wound up being either insane or otherwise tyrannical and evil.
It was for this reason that I appreciated the TV version and Headey's portrayal of Cersei Lannister, which while still not a good person (she did many things were were unforgivable) was a much more nuanced version of this character which showed the difficulty of being a strong woman and a leader in such a male-dominated world.
Also, regarding another of the few strong female characters in this series... I thought it was pretty telling that I read so much online speculation that the showrunners would likely have Brienne of Tarth die giving birth to Jaime Lannister's baby or some such, prior to the airing of the final episode of the series. One issue I had with the arc in both the books and the TV series for the character of Brienne of Tarth, is that I have to wonder, despite being as strong as she is, whether she exists mainly as an appendage of Jaime Lannister's arc in the books. I honestly also appreciated the fact that she wasn't attacked and all but raped in the TV series (i.e., in the books she is attacked and has part of her face eaten off by a fellow named Biter), as she was in the books (i.e., because all women have to be raped apparently, in the books). I wonder whether Brienne did not achieve a degree of independence from Jaime's arc in the TV show which she does not attain in the books. Regardless, I have to agree with various and sundry commenters who thought she should have started her own page in the annals of the Kingsguard.
Another issue for me is that... at least in the TV series, Jaime and Cersei Lannister begin the series in a similarly ethically challenged place, shall we say. Of course, it is JAIME who gets the redemption arc, not his sister. Think about that, too, for a minute.
Regarding the misogyny of the book and series, I found it interesting that the actresses who were, after all, not responsible for the writing of the show, were so frequently asked about the misogyny of the show. While I can concede a certain level of complicity by choosing to act in the show in question and take $$ for it, I find it rather telling that their male actor counterparts, and the show's male producers, were asked these questions much more rarely (if ever?). (This conclusion is based on looking at a large sampling of articles about this show, although I will openly admit to my sample not being a true random sample, LOL.)
Another comment of mine deals with the scene, earlier in the television series, where Jaime rapes Cersei. Followed later by at least one scene where Cersei is the one continuing with an encounter when Jaime says no. Lena Headey (who played Cersei) and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau (who played Jaime) both defended the controversial scene in question, stating that it wasn't meant to be a rape scene, etc. Coster-Waldau even states, “People had almost a sense of betrayal,” he said. “I think people had invested in the Jaime and Brienne storyline. She brought out the best in him, and he helped her and saved her. And then he goes and wants to have sex with his evil sister. Everything he does makes sense-Jaime keeps saying, ‘I have to get back.’ He says to Brienne, ‘We don’t get to chose who we love.’ He loves his sister. So I think there was a sense of betrayal, that ‘that’s not supposed to happen." Honestly, my response to this comment, where he appears to state that the viewers reacted badly to the scene because they wanted the character to be with someone else, is a big NOPE. And nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.
...Here is my take on this: in the book, one is privy to the characters' thoughts. It is therefore possible to have characters fail to verbalize consent, and yet still be consenting because we are privy to those thoughts. Onscreen, things are very different: it is possible to infer things from blatant or evident gestures, but honestly the only way for the viewer to truly appreciate that both parties have consented is for this to be clearly stated. When this is not the case AND one of the characters (Cersei in the first scene, Jaime in the second one I mentioned) says no and never explicitly provides consent, this places the scene(s) in question in a very different context. So while it may not have been INTENDED to come across as nonconsensual, one can't blame the viewers for inferring based on the only evidence provided onscreen, which is of one character saying no while the other continues on with the encounter regardless.
Finally, I am honestly not surprised that the writers (i.e., of the TV show as well as GRRM) were in general virtually incapable of writing a functional and working romantic relationship (I apologize again for the heteronormative tone of this post) involving women.
The way 'romantic' relationships were written in the show, honestly, reminds me of how I felt back in the day when I watched Buffy the Vampire Slayer and saw the shit show that was the Buffy/Angel relationship. Now, I was never even that much of a B/A shipper, but I still remember noting how Joss Whedon, through both BtVS and the Angel spinoff, seemed incapable of writing convincingly about love. Which is why I was actually not that surprised to read that open letter from his ex-wife revealing how he was a 'faux feminist' misogynistic asshole. Basically, peak 'nice guy' bullshit (i.e. the toxic type of 'nice guy' who believes their so-called niceness means women OWE them something in return). (Here is a SNL skit which sums up this whole attitude by that kind of men, really really well.)
All this preamble is to say that I'm really not that surprised that both GRRM and the script writers of Game of Thrones weren't able to write a convincing love story, because they aren't really and truly capable of conceiving women as their equals. Not really and never fully. So women will always be appendages to them (and note that my whole discourse here is super heteronormative, because men like this also tend to be homophobic assholes.)
Note that I focused this post on misogyny, but there is a LOT to say about the show (and the books') racism and homophobia and transphobia. (Some good comments about the racism of the series are here, here, here, and here.) (Some interesting comments on the show's homophobia and/or transphobia are here, here, and here. I will also note here that there is so little trans content in this show that it is very difficult to even find commentary on this.)
Fanfic links to come in part 2 of this post, LOL.
Here is one detailed comment regarding my (ethical) problems with the show and the books.
I also wish to apologize in advance for the heteronormative nature of this post -it is unfortunately difficult to avoid given the heteronormative nature of the TV show and the books. Another problem with this show which I haven't seen discussed at length is the general lack of LGBT characters, and the use of the bury your gays trope in this show (e.g. the Renly Baratheon and Loras Tyrell relationship).
I personally particularly liked the relationship between Jaime Lannister and Brienne of Tarth for some reason. What I did see of season 8 was actually rather awful (i.e., due to the awful dialogue and writing) and made me wonder what all the hoopla over this show was about (i.e., I believe the writing was likely much better in the seasons that were based off the books, because despite my many problems with the books GRRM does seem to be a competent writer).
I thought that the actors, in general, did a good job and really sold this relationship (IMHO).
I also really, really appreciated Lena Headey's portrayal of Cersei: one thing which bothers me (and I am of course perfectly willing to be corrected if I am wrong about this) that Cersei Lannister was simply a bad person/power hungry in the books, while being somewhat more nuanced in the TV series. One thing which bothers me about the apparent arc of Daenerys Targaryen (which may well have been a plot point which wound up in the show courtesy of GRR Martin) is that she becomes a mad tyrant herself. Therefore (note that I am excluding Sansa Stark from this commentary because she only became Queen of the North at the very end of the show and I am not certain this was planned by GRRM) yet another problem I have with this fictional universe is that there were TWO female leaders in the entirety of its history, and both wound up being either insane or otherwise tyrannical and evil.
It was for this reason that I appreciated the TV version and Headey's portrayal of Cersei Lannister, which while still not a good person (she did many things were were unforgivable) was a much more nuanced version of this character which showed the difficulty of being a strong woman and a leader in such a male-dominated world.
Also, regarding another of the few strong female characters in this series... I thought it was pretty telling that I read so much online speculation that the showrunners would likely have Brienne of Tarth die giving birth to Jaime Lannister's baby or some such, prior to the airing of the final episode of the series. One issue I had with the arc in both the books and the TV series for the character of Brienne of Tarth, is that I have to wonder, despite being as strong as she is, whether she exists mainly as an appendage of Jaime Lannister's arc in the books. I honestly also appreciated the fact that she wasn't attacked and all but raped in the TV series (i.e., in the books she is attacked and has part of her face eaten off by a fellow named Biter), as she was in the books (i.e., because all women have to be raped apparently, in the books). I wonder whether Brienne did not achieve a degree of independence from Jaime's arc in the TV show which she does not attain in the books. Regardless, I have to agree with various and sundry commenters who thought she should have started her own page in the annals of the Kingsguard.
Another issue for me is that... at least in the TV series, Jaime and Cersei Lannister begin the series in a similarly ethically challenged place, shall we say. Of course, it is JAIME who gets the redemption arc, not his sister. Think about that, too, for a minute.
Regarding the misogyny of the book and series, I found it interesting that the actresses who were, after all, not responsible for the writing of the show, were so frequently asked about the misogyny of the show. While I can concede a certain level of complicity by choosing to act in the show in question and take $$ for it, I find it rather telling that their male actor counterparts, and the show's male producers, were asked these questions much more rarely (if ever?). (This conclusion is based on looking at a large sampling of articles about this show, although I will openly admit to my sample not being a true random sample, LOL.)
Another comment of mine deals with the scene, earlier in the television series, where Jaime rapes Cersei. Followed later by at least one scene where Cersei is the one continuing with an encounter when Jaime says no. Lena Headey (who played Cersei) and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau (who played Jaime) both defended the controversial scene in question, stating that it wasn't meant to be a rape scene, etc. Coster-Waldau even states, “People had almost a sense of betrayal,” he said. “I think people had invested in the Jaime and Brienne storyline. She brought out the best in him, and he helped her and saved her. And then he goes and wants to have sex with his evil sister. Everything he does makes sense-Jaime keeps saying, ‘I have to get back.’ He says to Brienne, ‘We don’t get to chose who we love.’ He loves his sister. So I think there was a sense of betrayal, that ‘that’s not supposed to happen." Honestly, my response to this comment, where he appears to state that the viewers reacted badly to the scene because they wanted the character to be with someone else, is a big NOPE. And nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.
...Here is my take on this: in the book, one is privy to the characters' thoughts. It is therefore possible to have characters fail to verbalize consent, and yet still be consenting because we are privy to those thoughts. Onscreen, things are very different: it is possible to infer things from blatant or evident gestures, but honestly the only way for the viewer to truly appreciate that both parties have consented is for this to be clearly stated. When this is not the case AND one of the characters (Cersei in the first scene, Jaime in the second one I mentioned) says no and never explicitly provides consent, this places the scene(s) in question in a very different context. So while it may not have been INTENDED to come across as nonconsensual, one can't blame the viewers for inferring based on the only evidence provided onscreen, which is of one character saying no while the other continues on with the encounter regardless.
Finally, I am honestly not surprised that the writers (i.e., of the TV show as well as GRRM) were in general virtually incapable of writing a functional and working romantic relationship (I apologize again for the heteronormative tone of this post) involving women.
The way 'romantic' relationships were written in the show, honestly, reminds me of how I felt back in the day when I watched Buffy the Vampire Slayer and saw the shit show that was the Buffy/Angel relationship. Now, I was never even that much of a B/A shipper, but I still remember noting how Joss Whedon, through both BtVS and the Angel spinoff, seemed incapable of writing convincingly about love. Which is why I was actually not that surprised to read that open letter from his ex-wife revealing how he was a 'faux feminist' misogynistic asshole. Basically, peak 'nice guy' bullshit (i.e. the toxic type of 'nice guy' who believes their so-called niceness means women OWE them something in return). (Here is a SNL skit which sums up this whole attitude by that kind of men, really really well.)
All this preamble is to say that I'm really not that surprised that both GRRM and the script writers of Game of Thrones weren't able to write a convincing love story, because they aren't really and truly capable of conceiving women as their equals. Not really and never fully. So women will always be appendages to them (and note that my whole discourse here is super heteronormative, because men like this also tend to be homophobic assholes.)
Note that I focused this post on misogyny, but there is a LOT to say about the show (and the books') racism and homophobia and transphobia. (Some good comments about the racism of the series are here, here, here, and here.) (Some interesting comments on the show's homophobia and/or transphobia are here, here, and here. I will also note here that there is so little trans content in this show that it is very difficult to even find commentary on this.)
Fanfic links to come in part 2 of this post, LOL.