So, I know that third person omniscient POV means that you can be inside the head of every character in the story. But does it mean you HAVE to be
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I so much love to think about why writing works and why it doesn't, but I don't think I can comment even semi-intelligently here. I tend to get (sometimes deliriously) analytical on the micro level -- words that work, patterns, sentence structures, rhythms; how the tiny building blocks might work to add emotional connection or reveal something without feeling like exposition, that kind of thing. Analyzing bigger stuff, like POV -- not sure I can do that. (Also, I get what first person is, I think -- the rest of the names/categories are pretty much Greek to me. Even in the kinds of short fics where I might play around with POV I never have much of an idea of what category the POV would fit under.)
I guess I would have a gut feeling that anything is possible to pull off as far as POV handling is concerned, if you do it really well, but I'm assuming the writing would have to be of such caliber and such sureness that "poorly done head hopping" doesn't even occur to the reader as a possibility; it would just seem *right*. Which doesn't really answer your question -- so maybe if the fic *works* solidly, all the way through, it's third person omniscient (in a selective fashion), and if it doesn't work, I would vote for poorly done third person limited? If I'm interpreting the definitions of those POVs right from the context?
From a totally immaterial (and outsider) logic standpoint, if you couldn't say "the first part of that story was in third person limited and the second part was in third person omniscient (and why couldn't you say that? It sounds true and logical), I would think you would have to go with the broadest POV, in order to encompass both parts of the story which is what you did, right?
*gets twisted up*
Final thought: It really would be cool to be able to stand back at a distance from a fic you were writing and consciously apply these kinds of choices and techniques and skills -- you're the kind of writer who can do that, which I admire so very much.
edited because I meant to say that I *hope* you wouldn't have to be inside every character's head -- wouldn't you have to draw the line somewhere? Or do you mean just the primary characters? Not that that really makes any difference to what I was thinking -- if you write it well enough, you could make it work in any combination you wanted to, I think.
I guess I meant just the primary characters, not every single person in the room/setting, because, yeah, that would be a bit overwhelming.
And despite the fact that my instructor refused to answer the question of which POV it was, I have it on good authority that the story in question does use a combination of third person limited and third person omniscient. So I guess you can use more than one/mix them. :-)
Just a quick note, though: third person is when you start sentences with "He" as opposed to "I" (which is first person). Second person is when they start with "You" (like "You move through the door carefully and look around the room).
I'm absolutely no good at third person omniscient, can't do it worth a damn. I just don't think about writing that way; I'm usually interested in figuring out whose head I'm in so I can figure out who knows what when and how to communicate that to the reader. Third person omniscient scares the hell out of me, but Mab does it beautifully (for an example).
I guess I just got to wondering what the difference is between a bad fic where you're mostly in Jim's head but jump to Blair's for a disorienting moment and a third person omniscient good fic where you're mostly in Jim's head except for when you're in Blair's.
Mab really does the 'in different heads' things beautifully, yes.
I'm glad the story you talked about *is* considered to have a combination of POVs -- technical things (not to mention grammar rules) drive me batty when they don't seem to make sense, and a combination makes sense to me for what you described.
Gradually I may absorb some POV terminology :-) -- I/you/he 1-2-3 seems pretty straightforward, thanks!
Re the last paragraph of your comment: Off the top of my head I can only think of disorienting not-so-good!fic examples of a mostly-one, only-occasionally-the-other POV like that. Balance might have something to with it? Not necessarily how much time you spend in each character's head, but that switching to the "other" head isn't a convenient (or mistake-caused) one-off, instead is part of a pattern of occasional deliberate moments from that POV?
Ack, I don't know. But it's certainly interesting to think about! :-)
I've started to think that it has to do with relevance to the plot/story... that you might be in one character's head until you need to be in the other one, or in the one whose processing most of what's going on, but it might switch at some point.
I love talking about things like this. It's one of the things I liked about my class, although that was also all online, and I kind of missed being able to have a live discussion. :-)
I guess I would have a gut feeling that anything is possible to pull off as far as POV handling is concerned, if you do it really well, but I'm assuming the writing would have to be of such caliber and such sureness that "poorly done head hopping" doesn't even occur to the reader as a possibility; it would just seem *right*. Which doesn't really answer your question -- so maybe if the fic *works* solidly, all the way through, it's third person omniscient (in a selective fashion), and if it doesn't work, I would vote for poorly done third person limited? If I'm interpreting the definitions of those POVs right from the context?
From a totally immaterial (and outsider) logic standpoint, if you couldn't say "the first part of that story was in third person limited and the second part was in third person omniscient (and why couldn't you say that? It sounds true and logical), I would think you would have to go with the broadest POV, in order to encompass both parts of the story which is what you did, right?
*gets twisted up*
Final thought: It really would be cool to be able to stand back at a distance from a fic you were writing and consciously apply these kinds of choices and techniques and skills -- you're the kind of writer who can do that, which I admire so very much.
edited because I meant to say that I *hope* you wouldn't have to be inside every character's head -- wouldn't you have to draw the line somewhere? Or do you mean just the primary characters? Not that that really makes any difference to what I was thinking -- if you write it well enough, you could make it work in any combination you wanted to, I think.
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And despite the fact that my instructor refused to answer the question of which POV it was, I have it on good authority that the story in question does use a combination of third person limited and third person omniscient. So I guess you can use more than one/mix them. :-)
Just a quick note, though: third person is when you start sentences with "He" as opposed to "I" (which is first person). Second person is when they start with "You" (like "You move through the door carefully and look around the room).
I'm absolutely no good at third person omniscient, can't do it worth a damn. I just don't think about writing that way; I'm usually interested in figuring out whose head I'm in so I can figure out who knows what when and how to communicate that to the reader. Third person omniscient scares the hell out of me, but Mab does it beautifully (for an example).
I guess I just got to wondering what the difference is between a bad fic where you're mostly in Jim's head but jump to Blair's for a disorienting moment and a third person omniscient good fic where you're mostly in Jim's head except for when you're in Blair's.
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I'm glad the story you talked about *is* considered to have a combination of POVs -- technical things (not to mention grammar rules) drive me batty when they don't seem to make sense, and a combination makes sense to me for what you described.
Gradually I may absorb some POV terminology :-) -- I/you/he 1-2-3 seems pretty straightforward, thanks!
Re the last paragraph of your comment: Off the top of my head I can only think of disorienting not-so-good!fic examples of a mostly-one, only-occasionally-the-other POV like that. Balance might have something to with it? Not necessarily how much time you spend in each character's head, but that switching to the "other" head isn't a convenient (or mistake-caused) one-off, instead is part of a pattern of occasional deliberate moments from that POV?
Ack, I don't know. But it's certainly interesting to think about! :-)
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I love talking about things like this. It's one of the things I liked about my class, although that was also all online, and I kind of missed being able to have a live discussion. :-)
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