Hey, we haven't had industry talk in a while. Where's cronodroid?
Updated with some new responses 4PM EST
Just yesterday on the lj I put up a post noting how JE groups really aren't that different from KPop groups at all.
Then this post comes out today.
The main thing I notice is that Suju's variety prowess is considered a fluke since they were, in effect a leftovers group from the process that aimed at making DBSK the best music idol group.(Not just performance talent, but songwriting as well)
Then, since apparently charisma is always the main thing in girlgroups rather than performance talent, (why is that?) CSJH tanks, so they decided to do a mix of DBSK and Suju concepts, plus the bonus of debuting a large percentage of their same-age trainees, with SNSD. So we get a group that had strict roster selection to get the best singers and dancers, but still a large roster to allow for a wide variety of styles and personalities. (Whereas DBSK had very firmly two types of voices and everyone at a high dance level)
Shinee seemed to be a return to the DBSK formula, with a new generation of age ranges, but it seems like f(x) was this weird mesh of leftovers, new generation, and gimmick foreigners that was more a response to the big influx of girlgroups than a careful selection of trainees as with DBSK, SNSD, and Shinee. We'll see how f(x) pans out with a smaller number of members and less variety savvy than Suju.
Anywho, I'd like to address some of the comments on the industry, since I can't post in OMNTD.
The main sentiment seems to be best summarized in these comments:
"It's not so much the humanity that's holding him back, I think (though I do agree that he a little rusty in that department). I guess he won't have a group like those artists you mentioned because those artists rely on original content and identity rather than a pre-packaged image and sound. Producers chased after them instead of the other way around, like in SME.
IA that his system is genius but flawed. While his star-making formula worked wonders in Asia and parts of the world, the creative control held back his artists and is hindering them from being truly revolutionary. Madonna, Lady Gaga and MJ were pretty much in control of everything with regard to performance and so their work truly shone. They can pretty much afford to leave their producers and start their own labels if they wanted to, riding on talent alone. Being an SME artist means being used to sticking to a concept and complying with the company image -- it will be too hard for them to break away and I'm betting that they are not in touch with any artistic identity."
"His system will eventually fall in on itself because of the restrictions it places on artists and the unbalance in power. The US did used to have a system similar to this, but eventually people who are talented are going to want to rise up and depend on their own talents and not 50 people pushing an image on them. Plus the money issue is nothing to sneeze at. Sure they weren't slave contacts but it was def an unfair split.
Come to think of it isn't it a bit like Disney stars. They have an image (which they must uphold) plus they work exclusively with their channel for a select number of years. I think Disney excels by letting them go eventually. Miley and Brittney may have gotten themselves started at Disney but somehow their new images (for good or bad) really have nothing to do with Disney now. They control their image while they are young but as soon as they want to do something out of the Disney image they let them loose on the world to do their own sexy/individual thing. It's like SM has problems letting go yes you helped them raise up their careers but now it's time for them to move on and away. "
Oh, and Motown did not use a trainee system. Rather, it was more similar to the way Perfume came to fame: the members formed their group themselves, auditioned for a label, got in, and then met the producer who would define their sound.
But girlgroups like the Supremes disprove that you need to have creative control over everything to change music history. In this case, it could have been any girlgroup other than the Supremes, but it was producer Phil Spector's Wall of Sound techniques that really made the difference. (And like Nakata, Phil also worked with other groups and artists, even further spreading his sound to redefine how music could be produced and recorded wei wei pon wei wei.)
What's more, SM artists are allowed more creative input later in their careers. We've seen that, with groups writing more of their own songs and choosing their own solo stages and such. Besides, having creative control doesn't ensure that they have the talent for it. Most classical music soloists don't write their own cadenzas anymore, much less whole compositions a la Sarasate and Kreisler. What is notable, however, is that a SM artist's promoted single concept does always seem to be solely in the company's hands. But that isn't inherently a bad practice, as Sixth Sense doesn't look like it got much BEG input either, other than "hey can you handle these ridiculous adlibs?" Perhaps it doesn't let them have their own artistic identity to the casual listener who doesn't hear their album tracks, but that doesn't mean that they don't have one.
As for success of the system in the U.S, we partially already had this discussion already. So everyone was wrong on the front that the U.S. didn't have this system or couldn't make it work, because it did, for decades. The studio system didn't collapse because artists rose up or anything, but because the government was cracking down on monopolies and one dying studio decided to spite all of the others and complied with the government. What's more, it was also a time at which the general attitude of the population was turning away from kitsch and shortly to become permanently more cynical. I don't think the Asian mentality will allow the same thing to take place in Asia, especially considering how JE has been dominant in Japan since the 60s, and the focus is still more on academics. The idol system itself is squishing the chances of the system going away, as the pride in Kpop lies in the performance talent of the artists rather than to the character of their songs. No Korean Johnny Cash because he can't dance.
Oh, and thank you so much LSM for recognizing the US market is yet out of reach, but that doesn't mean concerts and releases don't have to happen at all here. THANK YOU. Gorram, I'm considering buying The Boys if I can find it just so I can say I did it and that I bought a SNSD album in the US! (Plus, even if The Boys the song sucks, I have faith in the other songs. RDR the album went the range from blandly enjoyable to downright good, so it's not like I'd be wasting money. Worst case scenario the hitchhiker song is mildly dissatisfying. I had to really restrain myself from buying the Cars 2 soundtrack the other day when I saw it in Target. UNGGGHHH PERFUME <3)
LSM's dream musical: ONE OF US ONE OF US On the other hand, ewwww dnw musical comprised of SMent greatest hits. At least it doesn't feature vampires. (Infinity...)
EDIT:
Okay, some people mentioned old hollywood, but are trying to claim that artists rebelling was the reason it collapsed. Sigh. No. It wasn't.
"His artists don't have longevity because he doesn't give them room for growth. Yes, he's got the technical and mathematical technique down pat, but the major glaring mistake in his system (and I predict the cause of his downfall) is that he doesn't account for the human factor. His artists need to grow, not only for themselves, but for their fans as well. This is the mistake businessmen make again and again. Their consumers aren't a 'constant'; they change/grow and it's not in a predictable fashion."
From an economic standpoint, it's easier for them not to grow in the long term. Build them up to superstardom, reap the benefits, then cut them loose when they fall below the profit threshhold point and debut a new group that adheres to current custormer desires. Usually "youth" is a consistent one, which makes the revolving door approach even more useful.
"It's like x+y=you will buy this album. It doesn't work that way. It can't."
Actually, it does. See THE ENTIRE IDOL INDUSTRY. Especially JE. Shisus, JE music from the very beginning sounds just like JE music today.
In other news:
Ho-lee shite Flying Get is still in the Top 10 over a month after it's release. Wut. Song is obnoxious.
Lolololol Beat Line is like Bang! plus dubstep and electro sections, and there's a moment where this people are doing tap dance moves and high kicks, not to mention the drum break with someone ACTUALLY playing a real snare drum. (albeit super messily) This is like my new favorite thing ever.
Just yesterday on the lj I put up a post noting how JE groups really aren't that different from KPop groups at all.
Then this post comes out today.
The main thing I notice is that Suju's variety prowess is considered a fluke since they were, in effect a leftovers group from the process that aimed at making DBSK the best music idol group.(Not just performance talent, but songwriting as well)
Then, since apparently charisma is always the main thing in girlgroups rather than performance talent, (why is that?) CSJH tanks, so they decided to do a mix of DBSK and Suju concepts, plus the bonus of debuting a large percentage of their same-age trainees, with SNSD. So we get a group that had strict roster selection to get the best singers and dancers, but still a large roster to allow for a wide variety of styles and personalities. (Whereas DBSK had very firmly two types of voices and everyone at a high dance level)
Shinee seemed to be a return to the DBSK formula, with a new generation of age ranges, but it seems like f(x) was this weird mesh of leftovers, new generation, and gimmick foreigners that was more a response to the big influx of girlgroups than a careful selection of trainees as with DBSK, SNSD, and Shinee. We'll see how f(x) pans out with a smaller number of members and less variety savvy than Suju.
Anywho, I'd like to address some of the comments on the industry, since I can't post in OMNTD.
The main sentiment seems to be best summarized in these comments:
"It's not so much the humanity that's holding him back, I think (though I do agree that he a little rusty in that department). I guess he won't have a group like those artists you mentioned because those artists rely on original content and identity rather than a pre-packaged image and sound. Producers chased after them instead of the other way around, like in SME.
IA that his system is genius but flawed. While his star-making formula worked wonders in Asia and parts of the world, the creative control held back his artists and is hindering them from being truly revolutionary. Madonna, Lady Gaga and MJ were pretty much in control of everything with regard to performance and so their work truly shone. They can pretty much afford to leave their producers and start their own labels if they wanted to, riding on talent alone. Being an SME artist means being used to sticking to a concept and complying with the company image -- it will be too hard for them to break away and I'm betting that they are not in touch with any artistic identity."
"His system will eventually fall in on itself because of the restrictions it places on artists and the unbalance in power. The US did used to have a system similar to this, but eventually people who are talented are going to want to rise up and depend on their own talents and not 50 people pushing an image on them. Plus the money issue is nothing to sneeze at. Sure they weren't slave contacts but it was def an unfair split.
Come to think of it isn't it a bit like Disney stars. They have an image (which they must uphold) plus they work exclusively with their channel for a select number of years. I think Disney excels by letting them go eventually. Miley and Brittney may have gotten themselves started at Disney but somehow their new images (for good or bad) really have nothing to do with Disney now. They control their image while they are young but as soon as they want to do something out of the Disney image they let them loose on the world to do their own sexy/individual thing. It's like SM has problems letting go yes you helped them raise up their careers but now it's time for them to move on and away. "
Oh, and Motown did not use a trainee system. Rather, it was more similar to the way Perfume came to fame: the members formed their group themselves, auditioned for a label, got in, and then met the producer who would define their sound.
But girlgroups like the Supremes disprove that you need to have creative control over everything to change music history. In this case, it could have been any girlgroup other than the Supremes, but it was producer Phil Spector's Wall of Sound techniques that really made the difference. (And like Nakata, Phil also worked with other groups and artists, even further spreading his sound to redefine how music could be produced and recorded wei wei pon wei wei.)
What's more, SM artists are allowed more creative input later in their careers. We've seen that, with groups writing more of their own songs and choosing their own solo stages and such. Besides, having creative control doesn't ensure that they have the talent for it. Most classical music soloists don't write their own cadenzas anymore, much less whole compositions a la Sarasate and Kreisler. What is notable, however, is that a SM artist's promoted single concept does always seem to be solely in the company's hands. But that isn't inherently a bad practice, as Sixth Sense doesn't look like it got much BEG input either, other than "hey can you handle these ridiculous adlibs?" Perhaps it doesn't let them have their own artistic identity to the casual listener who doesn't hear their album tracks, but that doesn't mean that they don't have one.
As for success of the system in the U.S, we partially already had this discussion already. So everyone was wrong on the front that the U.S. didn't have this system or couldn't make it work, because it did, for decades. The studio system didn't collapse because artists rose up or anything, but because the government was cracking down on monopolies and one dying studio decided to spite all of the others and complied with the government. What's more, it was also a time at which the general attitude of the population was turning away from kitsch and shortly to become permanently more cynical. I don't think the Asian mentality will allow the same thing to take place in Asia, especially considering how JE has been dominant in Japan since the 60s, and the focus is still more on academics. The idol system itself is squishing the chances of the system going away, as the pride in Kpop lies in the performance talent of the artists rather than to the character of their songs. No Korean Johnny Cash because he can't dance.
Oh, and thank you so much LSM for recognizing the US market is yet out of reach, but that doesn't mean concerts and releases don't have to happen at all here. THANK YOU. Gorram, I'm considering buying The Boys if I can find it just so I can say I did it and that I bought a SNSD album in the US! (Plus, even if The Boys the song sucks, I have faith in the other songs. RDR the album went the range from blandly enjoyable to downright good, so it's not like I'd be wasting money. Worst case scenario the hitchhiker song is mildly dissatisfying. I had to really restrain myself from buying the Cars 2 soundtrack the other day when I saw it in Target. UNGGGHHH PERFUME <3)
LSM's dream musical: ONE OF US ONE OF US On the other hand, ewwww dnw musical comprised of SMent greatest hits. At least it doesn't feature vampires. (Infinity...)
EDIT:
Okay, some people mentioned old hollywood, but are trying to claim that artists rebelling was the reason it collapsed. Sigh. No. It wasn't.
"His artists don't have longevity because he doesn't give them room for growth. Yes, he's got the technical and mathematical technique down pat, but the major glaring mistake in his system (and I predict the cause of his downfall) is that he doesn't account for the human factor. His artists need to grow, not only for themselves, but for their fans as well. This is the mistake businessmen make again and again. Their consumers aren't a 'constant'; they change/grow and it's not in a predictable fashion."
From an economic standpoint, it's easier for them not to grow in the long term. Build them up to superstardom, reap the benefits, then cut them loose when they fall below the profit threshhold point and debut a new group that adheres to current custormer desires. Usually "youth" is a consistent one, which makes the revolving door approach even more useful.
"It's like x+y=you will buy this album. It doesn't work that way. It can't."
Actually, it does. See THE ENTIRE IDOL INDUSTRY. Especially JE. Shisus, JE music from the very beginning sounds just like JE music today.
In other news:
Ho-lee shite Flying Get is still in the Top 10 over a month after it's release. Wut. Song is obnoxious.
Lolololol Beat Line is like Bang! plus dubstep and electro sections, and there's a moment where this people are doing tap dance moves and high kicks, not to mention the drum break with someone ACTUALLY playing a real snare drum. (albeit super messily) This is like my new favorite thing ever.