Too many new K-pop idol groups debuting...my assessment.
Hey guys! I'm Crono. This is just a quickie regarding my favorite Meta topic: the K-pop industry. Mind dump warning…
( I may or may not like rookies very much... )
( I may or may not like rookies very much... )
Oh man, I just hit full circle. My first comment at grey's was kind of addressing this, because the evolution of Morning Musume itself was this cycle.
"1st gen(DBSK, SNSD, Big Bang, Wonder Girls) has to win over the audience that has never seen their like before. So the companies stack the groups with talent put through the fire of auditions and training. 2nd/3rd gen(Super Junior, SHINee, 2pm/am, 2NE1) has to live up to the 1st gen, as well as forging their own images to avoid being labelled as ripoffs. So in some ways, they have to be even more stacked than 1st gen. It's during this period that popularity takes off. By the time 4th gen(4minute, HAM, SHU-I, B2ST) rolls around, the talent doesn't have the flash it used to, as the novelty has worn off and/or the bar is ridiculously high already. So they resort to personality to market themselves. HAM's T.T Dance is just ridiculous. I hate the song and dance for it. But their promotions for it were so quirky it drew me in. SHU-I did an Again and Again dance cover which clearly wasn't as excellent dance-wise, but threw in a whole bunch of antics to make it funny. Yet the movement is enough to carry things. Popularity begins to drop with 5th gen, which I don't think Kpop has reached yet. But I can kind of imagine. Infinite looks like SHINee dolls. And while I'm sure they are all great idols, my interest is already taken by the 'originals'. (On a side note, f(x) is technically a 4th gen group by timeline, but they're built like a 2nd gen group, which they are in SM. I'm eager to see how that plays out.)"
Morning Musume built a good deal popularity with their 1st and 2nd gens that was starting to peeter out before their popularity shot through the roof with their 3rd generation and their Gee single "Love Machine". 2nd gen was three people and 3rd gen was only 1 person. 4th, 5th, and 6th gens were each four people so that the group was at a whopping 16 members by the time 6th gen joined. 4th gen is notorious for their very colorful and memorable personalities, but marked the start of a tradition for less talented girls to be chosen. Doomsayers in the MM fandom often point to 5th gen as worthless, dead weight riding on the previous generations and a main reason the group's downfall. Sound familiar? Even now most Japanese people don't recognize MM members past 4th gen. But as I said above, MM has found ways to endure despite their decline in popularity and just inducted their 9th generation.
It's arguable whether or not this is actually detrimental or even if it's beneficial.
Your point here gets murky. Detrimental/beneficial with regards to what? Most of the above is arguing that there's not that big of an effect on the economy since these things happen in cycles. In these latter paragraphs you seem to be instead talking about the quality of the Kpop scene, creative input/output, performance talent, etc. Well, that happens in cycles too, besides which I'm not sure how the economic health of the industry would fix this since it's more of a cultural hierarchy thing.
I liked your thoughts on decreasing the power of the Big 3 because it's another perspective on the studio vs. agency thing and how it seems that studio does in the long run produce better quality stars, although often at the expense of better quality songs, etc.
Didn't Miss A achieve big popularity out of the gate? Not to 2NE1 levels, but they are a year behind and still got a #1 with their debut song.
It's also funny that you mention how it's okay to have more groups from the bigger studios, because it's the same in Jpop. I couldn't care less about any of those groups on the Tokyo Idol Festival site, whereas H!P is backed by Tsunku and AKB48 by Akimoto and Perfume by Nakata Yasutaka who have clout in the industry. Too bad Super*Girls and Tokyo Girls Style are shit though, because Avex actually did a great job previously with dream and SweetS, and even Folder/Folder5 to an extent. *weeps for SweetS*
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In essence, what happens when K-pop has run out of things to emulate because the US is still in the R&B phase and nobody in Korea wants to buy it anymore? In a less monopolistic and rigid system, aspiring artists would just come out with the Next Big Thing and it'd be all good. But the Korean music industry really stifles that sort of creativity in my opinion and they might not be ready for when and if it temporarily implodes.
Of course, if it DID implode, there wouldn't be much of the control the Big Three have now so maybe we would see more original music being made. Implode is a strong statement to make, and yeah it's unrealistic because people will always make music. Also, if the market was to collapse and rebuild itself, that would only be beneficial for the musical evolution of K-pop. It would likely come back stronger and more resilient after experiencing a temporary (if severe) decline. Unfortunately, this would probably lead to the current idols we all know and love eating it too. And it would force the market to find something new to listen to, but that could set K-pop back a number of years. I love K-pop, so I don't want it to die quite yet (even if it was only for a year or two). I mean waiting for the next Soshi release is already painful as it is!!
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With the first point, I guess I'm afraid if it ever reaches the point where there are too many groups to handle, they'll start focusing their efforts on the domestic market rather than trying to appeal to the rest of us in the outside world. Maybe this is an unfounded fear, just something to consider. If anything else, Japan is twice the size of South Korea and seems to have a lot more subcultures from an observer's perspective, even though the two countries are both 99% ethnically homogeneous. Maybe there's enough people who prefer kimono to air stewardess uniforms to warrant it :/
Your point here gets murky. Detrimental/beneficial with regards to what?
In regards to decreasing the power of the Big Three and having smaller companies. Reducing the clout of the big ones and putting power into more hands is usually a good thing, but that could be the Western upbringing talking and our belief in maintaining anti-trust standards (even though American corporations have done nothing but consolidate over the last 100 years).
Detrimental in that the big companies can't pay the big talent so it gets diffused amongst multiple companies instead of three big ones. It probably costs a lot of money to maintain a group like Soshi on top of all their liabilities. If six other companies are grabbing a piece of the "large girl group who are sexy as hell" niche, less for Soshi. I would think anyway, the market definitely has a ceiling on it as the Korean economy slows down over the next few years and the population starts shrinking.
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Nothing. My point was that these cycles are natural and inevitable, especially if you consider that it's already happened in Kpop with there being an idol group generation gap with a HOT era vs. the DBSK era.
This is inherent to the idol system because at the point at which they have more musical freedom and having a large role in their production they cease to be idols and become full-fledged artists.
Furthermore, one can argue that the Jpop idol system is even more stifling(if you want I can provide examples) and yet theirs has been happily treading water for decades longer than Kpop.
Unfortunately, this would probably lead to the current idols we all know and love eating it too.
As idol groups, yes. But looking at previous precedents in American and in Kpop itself this likely means that the Top idol groups will disband but that individual members will go onto solo careers as musical artists rather than idols. Lee Hyori. Ock Juhyun. Kim Taewoo. Justin Timberlake. I definitely foresee Taeyeon joining their ranks.
In Korea, Japanese groups are not popular at all
This is a falsity. Several Johnny's and even some H!P have held concerts in Korea, and H!P even held an audition in Korea.
Here, have a Korean documentary on MM's popularity in Korea. Here, have some korean Arashi love. Amuro Namie korean CF
The perception of Koreans hating Jpop is like saying America hates Justin Bieber. In addition, in the same way Americans turn to Jpop because they don't like American music, a lot of Koreans prefer Jpop because they don't like Kpop. Please do your research.
Not going to touch the looks debate. No wait, I think I will.
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Other than the elitist bullshit that would result like restricting image distribution to locals only, I don't care about who Kpop is trying to appeal to. I'm one of those people that enjoys Kpop partially because it is foreign(don't have to wince at retarded lyrics because I don't know that they're retarded) and as an international fan I'm not really affected by any of their moves anyways. Except for, as grey noted, when the amount of media available drops while they try to move to a bigger market. Focussing efforts on the domestic market might increase the music quality because they'd be striving to find that Korean sound the way Gee embodies, so at least they'd end up with something new the way Gee was.
For that matter, idolling really really isn't about the music quality. If I wanted to listen to the best in any particular genre, I'd listen to the masters of that genre. I listen to idol music because of the sentimental feelings of loyalty I have with regards to certain idols. Well, except for bubblegum. No one writes bubblegum like Jpop producers. Mmmmm.
Detrimental in that the big companies can't pay the big talent
*insert snark about slave contracts and nonexistent wages here*
Okay, but seriously? I don't think you have to worry too much about SNSD being affected by saturation at this point. Some of your previous arguments were that the smaller groups were doomed to fail because SNSD's fanbase is already too large and too stable for there to be enough leftovers for rookies. Besides which even the biggest acts with long-lasting careers are only known for their top hits in the long run. Who wants to best in the future the oldies channel will only ever play Poker Face and Just Dance for Lady Gaga? MM definitely have only 1-3 songs that the Japanese populace remembers. And similarly, I'm pretty sure SNSD is already past their peak of popularity growth, although maybe they'll get a new signature Japanese song. *shrugs*
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I have no doubt that is the case, but the treading water thing is precisely the point I'm bringing forward. K-pop obviously has aspirations to expand globally but they appear to be treading water; making profits where they can but not producing a particularly appealing product (mostly). That's the only contention I have with so many new K-pop groups debuting, I really don't have a problem with it because they can come out with good songs, but it seems like they're rushing it a little. I know they don't have the time or money of the big dogs but a lot of people in the past have done a lot of good with very little money. I guess idol groups are much more expensive than singer-songwriters what with paying to appear on music shows, filming MVs, creating dozens of costumes (lol), etc. but debuting idols when they're just not ready is a silly business venture that detracts from K-pop in its entirety.
Anecdotal: When I was first introduced to K-pop, my friend was watching "Lollipop" by Big Bang/2NE1 and showed me "Balloons" by TVXQ. *facepalm* Now we know those songs are atypical of the high quality shit they've put out, but that almost irreparably damaged my opinion of K-pop. Even after my friend showed me something actually good like "Wedding Dress", I was skeptical. I know now that songs like "Wedding Dress" and "Mirotic" are indeed anomalies in the otherwise scum-filled cesspool that is K-pop, but there are plenty of hits to go along with the bad, much like America. New listeners may not know this though, and with more BAD groups there's a greater chance of stumbling upon something bad rather than something good. I know it's hard to qualify badness but from an objective viewpoint a lot of the new debuts and comebacks have been shockingly woeful, and that has the potential to occlude the good stuff. I mean have you seen Chi-Chi or Coin Jackson? What a waste!
In the end, the free market sorts itself out and the bad ones will fall to the good ones, but that doesn't mean I don't think they should really slow down making new groups. At least train them longer/better.
As idol groups, yes. But looking at previous precedents in American and in Kpop itself this likely means that the Top idol groups will disband but that individual members will go onto solo careers as musical artists rather than idols. Lee Hyori. Ock Juhyun. Kim Taewoo. Justin Timberlake. I definitely foresee Taeyeon joining their ranks.
I know Soshi very likely has an expiry date but the further away that is, the better. That is unless they keep making CF songs to exploit their current profitability. We shall find out when Mr. Taxi drops. Hopefully it won't be another Visual Dreams travesty.
This is a falsity.
I didn't say Koreans hate J-pop. I know I said they're not popular and that's my bad, I'm sure there is a market for J-pop in Korea. But I would argue it's minuscule compared to the market for K-pop in Japan. Relatively speaking, Korean artists are more popular in Japan than Japanese artists are popular in Korea.
http://www.jpopasia.com/charts/
On the Oricon for this week there's three Korean artists, whereas none on the Mnet chart. This is significant because while you may argue that a lot of Koreans turn to J-pop, it's obviously not enough to affect the chart in any meaningful manner (this week anyway). Or at least they're not buying the singles. There isn't really a chart for illegal downloads I guess. My point being K-pop has obviously more international appeal than J-pop (even though the domestic market in Japan is more profitable at this point so Japanese musicians don't feel the need to promote abroad). Flooding the market with more and more groups is detrimental towards international appeal. Japan doesn't have to worry about that because they're content with their domestic scene, which is fine because they're making much more money than their Korean counterparts anyway. So that's a clear difference between how hundreds of very similar groups in Japan is fine, but it isn't in Korea. Korea is not only looking inward, but outwards too.
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Looks, again, are hard to judge objectively. However, speaking from the Asian male perspective, there's always been a perception (unfair or not) that Japanese women are not as attractive as their Korean/Chinese/Vietnamese counterparts. Most of my Asian female friends and relatives maintain that Japanese men are hot though, so it balances out :P
Your links were a little disappointing to be honest :3 They're not bad, but plastic or not I could post the pictures of my so-called "K-Pop The List" and they (again in my opinion) would crush pretty much any idol I've seen come out of Japan. No wait, I think I will too! I don't even have to bring out the big guns (Soshi) :P Anyway, this is beside the point, we could get every listener of J+K-pop to argue about which female idols are better looking and we may never come to a conclusion. But I get the feeling, speaking as a heterosexual Asian male, that female Korean idols would win if we considered the opinion of other heterosexual Asian men.
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I like that you're so optimistic. Most of my arguments have been general "this is how the idol system is" pessimism, but I like how you are proposing plausible solutions that in some cases have been partially implemented.
However, I still believe that the saturation of groups and the rushing of production is inevitable per wave of any new form of media, and that in the long run this saturation isn't that detrimental to the success of the big names. After all, I am one of those people who don't care about any of these new groups because I have SNSD. Nine Muses doesn't detract from my enjoyment of Kpop at all. My bringing up Jpop successfully treading water is that your original point seemed to be that it would kill Kpop.
Anecdotal
LOL, I think I've permanently turned raingilded off of Jpop because I've purposely traumatized her with some of its more more horrifying products. >:D Although actually, having to sit through the horrifyingly cutesy Jpop has led to my having a great deal of respect for quality bubblegum and my first response to Kpop was "meh" because their bubblegum(circa 2008) wasn't unabashed enough. XD
At least train them longer/better.
Heh, CCM cheats by using old SM trainees instead. :3 Which boyband has the Big Bang reject?
the further away that is, the better
But at what cost? MM has been able to stay afloat for over 10 years but its current fanbase is mostly wota. And now they're stuck with 'em. It's the same reason why the Sones are always so adamant about SNSD's fanbase NOT being all ahjhussi fans. They don't want SNSD being associated with the wota stigma.
CF songs: I like Visual Dreams as a song. MV wasn't too shabby either, about on par with their RDR MV actually. I think people were just disappointed that it was Intel and yet the budget was apparently so small. In my perception though most fans seem to think Chocolate Love is like their greatest song after Gee and TMYW.
But if by CF songs you mean Ramyun and Cooky, the SHIT MAN DO I AGREE.
Korean artists are more popular in Japan than Japanese artists are popular in Korea.
I'm still not sure about this statement because I have no numbers that say otherwise, but I don't know if any of the Korean charts include foreign releases. And before this current wave of idols Jpop definitely was a big presence in Korea and their main source of pop music, as their HOT-era wave and the bubblegum trend in 2008 were basically the Korean take on Jpop. The difference between Kpop and Jpop really began with DBSK and the trend for Kpop members to be well-trained and highly talented instead of the girl-next-door approach that that one former member of Finkl/SES admitted was used for her own admittance into the group.
Keep in mind also the scale. Of course there are more Japanese fans of Kpop than the opposite due to the sheer size of the Japanese market. In terms of percentages though, I think there might be more Jpop support in Korea because the idol market in Japan is such a small percentage of its overall music market, even in the mainstream.
Flooding the market with more and more groups is detrimental towards international appeal.
I dunno about this because a lot of the newbie groups have done more promotions in Japan than SNSD and have begun building fanbases already. Infinite and Dalmation, for pete's sake. They don't seem to have suffered much for having trained less. The girlgroups on the other hand seem to be having a harder time of it, which links into the next issue.
that female Korean idols would win if we considered the opinion of other heterosexual Asian men
I guess Japanese men aren't Asian then. Oh wait...
Lol, you should come into chat some time so we can PICTURE FACE OFF!
Also the solution to this is obviously bikini jello wrestling.
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I really don't know if I would compare VD to RDR, while RDR was a fairly simple MV, the outfits in VD were recycles of TMYW, RDR (with a different color palette) and Hoot! Even the arm wave choreography was copied from TMYW...also some of the mistakes were awful. I still don't know if the Jessica thing was intentional, but Yuri's pained expression at around 0:08 onwards was disturbing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSQwCK_8VSM
She really looked like she did not want to be there, and for good reason. Maybe it was the song but they looked so robotic and emotionless in the MV that I was stunned. RDR, they were definitely fierce although I wish Sooyoung showed more skin like the one time she wore Taeyeon's RDR outfit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TNO8q-k0-0
God those abs are hot enough to eat off of.
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Eh, I disagree with VD outfits being recycled since basically all SNSD outfits since TMYW have been recycles of the hotpants formula(especially Hoot being a rehash Oh outfits minus the numbers) Besides which it's not like the RDR choreo itself was particularly inspired.(I already made a rant about it. XD) But I never watched the VD MV in detail or its performances so I can't really compare.
Oh, so you're abs man huh?
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