I'm not saying it's a smart way to go about things, but it's clear also that currently "in" idols have a expiary date, especially female groups. Many of us here are watching SNSD with interest to see how long they can survive as a girl group precisely because the age limit for being successful as a girl group is catching up to them--and we want to see if it's sooner rather than later.
There may also be another factor: the longer established a group, the more it might cost management to keep them. I wonder how the risk-to-create-a-successful-group vs. cost-to-keep-a-successful-group scenarios balance out.
Plus, you know how it is with any market: companies want to get while the getting is good and so everyone is on that bandwagon until, well, everyone falls off of it.
With Kara, do many people remember the days of Sunghee and Break It/If U Wanna?
Yes. Enough people remember to make other people curious. I'm not even into Kara, but the insistence of older fans in mentioning Sunghee has not only made me aware of her existence, but generates curiosity to look into it. I wouldn't be surprised if many people looked into Kara's music to compare Befoer and After just because people mentioned that there was a "better" vocal period. (Morning Musume can be like this, too, with people looking into the group's history because fans aware of the history keep talking about it.)
In fact, I would compare it to a fan like myself who constantly talks about HyoYeon. In the larger picture of things, she's the overlooked member, but I think I've talked about her enough to get people to look. It's the way fandom works: the fans have to generate the buzz that sets off the spark that leads to the wildfire.
The international music scene is a topic I wonder about and is probably too big to just address here, but I wonder if it's . . . even smart to tailor yourself to another market rather than appeal on your own merits. Too many sticky factors here.
No, American artists can't release WHATEVER they want, but you have songs like "Fuck the Police", pretty much Eminem's entire back catalog, songs sharply criticizing the US government and policies, songs that talk about explicit sex and violence and other stuff that would not fly in Korea.
This is a symptom that is telling of the audience rather than the artist themselves, I think. That is, why can't wholesome songs make it rather than this need to always be abrasive, offensive, and shocking? Isn't this why Taylor Swift is kind of a phenomenon, crossing over from Country, which really is a huge market unto itself!, to mainstream Pop with a clean image?
it still needs to be approved by the company in order to become published and distributed.
Isn't this true of any artist's works? Small indie artists have the same problem: their labels hear their songs and have to decide whether or not it's marketable.
I think there probably are avenues of getting your music heard. Remember the rapper who was dissing G-dragon? He wasn't singing on M! Countdown, but his music was known. Again, we may be too outside to see very effectively into the Korean market. It's probably the same for those outside of the American market looking into what we must listen to--and our industry is way more diverse than just Pop.
In the US, the money goes directly into drugs, groupies and opulent mansions. I would argue only a small amount comparatively goes into making the next album/concert/show.
Really? You're looking at a very small slice of the music industry pie. So few can claim to have reached that level of success when one looks at How Freakin' Big the music industry is.
Actually, anyone know a lot about the country music industry? Chely Wright's memoir kind of makes me think that it's kind of like a self-made idol world, since you do have to tailor to rules (spoken and unspoken), appearances, and genre.
This is true, and I wasn’t saying that Korean music is not also quite diverse, but like you said, it’s only the pop music that is getting out. This is the problem, I really don’t think the popular music being made is exceptionally groundbreaking at the moment, and most of the new groups that I’ve seen are doing nothing at all to advance pop music. If anything, they’re going backwards. The groups that are making either refreshing/good stuff usually (but not always) come from the Big Three. There are successes from the smaller companies as I mentioned, but it would appear the chances of creating a truly breakout group with a new start-up seems slim. Not that I have any real problem with people giving it a try, I’m just curious whether the cost of forming a new idol group actually pays off. It may seem crazy that I’m arguing for consolidation rather than diversification (in terms of trainees joining SM/YG/JYP for a shot rather than trying to forge their path with a new company), but that is in my opinion the best course of action if the K-pop industry continues to employ its current business model.
Yes, it’s a crapshoot too, but again I go back to the differences between the Korean market and the Western (US) one. The US one is much, much bigger than the Korean one, not only domestically but also internationally, and the US record label system, while still monopolistic, allows much greater room for musical freedom than the Korean one. In Korea from my understanding, if you’re an idol, you sing what the company wants you to sing and rarely get to participate in creating the music. Now this in and of itself isn’t necessarily a bad thing, it’s very machine like in the sense that you have people to write the songs, people to market the songs, idols to perform the songs, choreographer to create the dance and managers to take care of the rest. It’s actually ideal for entertainment value since the idols can focus solely on performing instead of writing the music, and people who actually specialize in writing take care of that.
However, this machine like model doesn’t leave a lot of room for creativity. As I believe was mentioned somewhere on this site, companies are forced to choose between churning out pop-friendly hits rather than trying something more daring, and I believe the K-pop scene cannot truly progress to the next level without more musical freedom.
This doesn’t mean I want to see some awful avant-garde rock opera concept album from Soshi. Right now, K-pop is heavily derivative of American music, but I think K-pop has the ability to become a trend setter rather than a trend follower.
How does this tie back into my point about too many new groups debuting? If it wasn’t already clear, I think all the new groups coming out are adhering far too closely to the established business model in the hopes of making a quick buck instead of trying something new. And they have the audacity to claim they’re not just out for easy money but that they’re creating something new and fresh when clearly they are not (for the most part). I don’t fault them for trying but I think as long as the current system remains in place, the chances for a new group to truly make an impact is slim. Of course one must consider whether we want to risk destroying the current system with a proven track record of pumping out hits and good groups for something more akin to the American one but with no guarantee that it will be any good. Maybe I should just bite the bullet and proclaim loudly “EVERYONE SWITCH TO THE YG SYSTEM!!”
The fan driven popularity thing is interesting I think. It ties in with this point: right now K-pop is experiencing a surge of popularity globally. But funnily enough, all the K-pop artists trying to break into the hardest market (US) have failed miserably. One of my friends who used to work with Se7en thinks it's a combination of prejudice and Americans not being "ready" for Asian pop stars or K-pop in general. In many ways, this still applies, but personally I think as K-pop expands, there are serious limitations on K-pop becoming as big as the entertainment companies want. A lot of it has to do with American tastes, Americans prefer rap and R&B as I mentioned before.
In many ways, my post could be seen as a complaint that very few groups seem to be moving towards a genre I prefer (R&B) and are sticking with the annoying autotuned electronic/dance tinged bubblegum pop when R&B seems to be the right direction to go in. I think if the US were to suddenly get K-pop forced upon it, someone like Taeyang would be by far the most popular and respected artist, and right now as far as idols go he's very likely the idol who would have the most success as a solo artist whether in Korea or the US.
This isn't an argument or anything, just some food for thought. Korea doesn't like R&B much, for example, the new DBSK song Before U Go is really, really good, it's 90s era slow jams done right but it's being carried entirely by DBSK's popularity rather than on its musical merits. Likewise, a song like Wedding Dress which in my opinion is in the top three best K-pop songs (along with I Don't Care and You & I) wasn't really super popular in Korea compared to the other songs on Solar (and even then, the album wasn't a mega smash hit like Bonamana or Oh even though musically it was far superior to both). So R&B will just be a side thing even though it appeals the most to the American crowd that K-pop always seems to want to please. Anyway, this is just me sulking.
This is a symptom that is telling of the audience rather than the artist themselves, I think. That is, why can't wholesome songs make it rather than this need to always be abrasive, offensive, and shocking? Isn't this why Taylor Swift is kind of a phenomenon, crossing over from Country, which really is a huge market unto itself!, to mainstream Pop with a clean image?
I wasn't saying songs need to be "bad" rather than "wholesome" in order to sell or anything. But you need freedom to express yourself if you want to make better music IMO, and that occasionally means delving into darker subject matter. Rap is only respectable in my opinion because it has always been used as a instrument to illustrate social and personal problems. It would be entirely pointless if all rap, past and present, resembled the Flo Rida "let's go to the club and act like abject retards". As long as rap continues to not only talk about Big Pimpin' but also about Thug Life (the struggle), it's still good. Korean rap on the other hand...I've seen some of these lyrics and it's disappointing. I know Korea doesn't exactly have a long and illustrious history of rap music but still! But I guess that's a symptom of the society from which this music comes. I seriously doubt any idols have really experienced the same sort of life that forges the musical identities of American rappers and still choose to audition at YG or something. In fact I doubt you'll get much music out of Korea that could be called "street", so the whole "wholesome vs. offensive" thing is probably a moot point.
As a side note, the relative lack of ghetto life hasn't stopped Japan from creating some awesome rappers though. K-pop idol rappers are a joke by comparison.
Really? You're looking at a very small slice of the music industry pie. So few can claim to have reached that level of success when one looks at How Freakin' Big the music industry is.
Haha, I don't really want to discuss this point much, but my point is that I'm going to make the claim that American artists have a lot more discretionary income than their Korean counterparts. Also, drugs are a lot more easily obtained over here than over there. But lol.
Beware stream-of-consciousness ramblinggreywingMarch 25 2011, 19:24:26 UTC
I'm concerned with your idea of YG as the pinnacle of management simply because of individual artist freedom and the assumption that such artistic freedom leads to musical innovation. I mean, should idols have to create any of their own stuff? what if, really, they don't want to? What if they just want to perform? Do we expect musical actors to create their own musicals? Do we expect actors to direct their own movies (and while this does happen, it's an exception rather than a rule).
I would not argue against freedom of artistry--but only if that's what an individual really wants . . . and, in the company's eyes, can be marketable. (Because if you're letting a big act suddenly produce music that doesn't sell, well, you've got some revenue issues in terms of wanting to re-invest in an artist for them to produce more music.) I have to point to SNSD's own Deep Talk interview. Not all the SNSD members have the same goal. Some would sacrifice in the talent area in order to achieve fame and recognition. Others would take a hit in popularity in order to be seen as talented artists. Not all these would-be stars/idols necessarily want to create their own music and though I've come off as thinking producing one's own work as necessary before, I've been shaken out of my own tunnel vision. It's not really necessarily if, what you're aiming to be, is a performer/entertainer. And, really, what if they're not really that creative? What if their music turns out to be the same humdrum stuff we hear? What if it's worse? D: So, really, we should just be hissing at the composer and arrangers that the management companies are hiring and the unwillingness of perhaps these composers to branch out from a winning formula.
I think we've ended up talking around the issue. You argue that less rookie groups should be produced so that the Big Three can keep their big chunks of the market in order to have the money to produce "innovative" music. But why not say that, rather than reducing the number of rookie groups being put out, there should be an increase in the production of alternative acts to the idol act? I think the advance in music you want to see would come as a result of a diversification of the musical offerings in the genres rather than this need to produce rookie groups. Shoring up the idol business model may not be the answer; you can even look to big companies to actually support their non-idol artists who do offer music alternative to the usual pop. SM has a few that we never really hear from and that don't get the promotional machine behind them like SNSD does. *cue sighing and gnashing of teeth from fans who think talents are being wasted, dum de dum*
Of course, if really want you want is hot artists to look at who will dress up in funky costumes and dance all over the stage, then you're stuck with an idol system. But it doesn't have to be like that.
The problem, really, may lie in how small the Korean market is. If I'm to believe Wiki, the biggest music market is America, followed by . . . Japan. (Think about how crazy that is, this little island having the second biggest music market?!) Thus, is it any wonder that Korea tries so hard to export to Japan? And Japan does have a diverse market. What Korea could bring to Japan is a new model for the idol market as opposed to the kind of slapdash idol market that's big in Japan. Yet that does mean that they're going to have to cater to the bigger market's tastes, so what we see in K-pop right now is them trying to figure out what J-pop likes. (Ah, memories, remember when we were all saying that "Girlfriend" on the TMYW album sounded like it came straight out of J-pop and anime music?)
Re: Beware stream-of-consciousness ramblinggreywingMarch 25 2011, 19:25:13 UTC
What's interesting about the Korean market is that this exporting deal means that in the absence of the Big Names that move over to Japan, potential holes open up to be filled. This is probably also encouraging the rush to produce new rookie groups, since the absence of a Big Group means that someone can move into that space of popularity. Yet, no big company wants to lose the market it already has, so a group like SNSD is stuck between a rock and a hard place. SNSD wants to keep both the domestic Korean market and make leaps into the Japanese market and are trying to commit to both paths. I'm not sure it'll work. I know my interest in SNSD has severely waned with their attempt to move into Japan simply because they don't have the same promotional machine in Japan that they do in Korea, not to mention that it's taken them quite some time to actually produce originall Japanese songs instead of just Japanese versions.
But if you want to argue J-pop music arrangements vs. K-pop, I'mma leave that to AG. Really, I wouldn't mind a fusion of K-pop and J-pop, that is, take the talent grinding of K-pop (which will also give you those pretty girls to look at, if that's what you need to enjoy the music) and let some of the crazy minds of J-pop write the songs for them. You argue that R&B is the "right" direction to move toward . . . maybe if you want to break into the American market. But the Japanese market is all for embracing a fellow bubblegum pop group. It's all in what market you're aiming for, and Korea will be happy taking Yen as much as it would Dollars (especially from J-wota who are all for buying ridiculous amounts of albums in order to support their groups). The Korean management companies have seen that the US isn't open to welcoming them yet--and I agree with this, as the only non-English language sung in songs on American radios is Spanish--and so it's moved to a market that will embrace them, Japan. Your arguments are very West-centric, whereas the K-pop industry has been quite steadily moving East for years. The interest in K-pop in America is almost entirely Internet-grown, while the interest in K-pop in Japan is actually through promotions and distribution. Can we buy American versions of their releases? No. America isn't really a market for K-pop yet, so this focus on K-pop's "need" to cater to American tastes doesn't quite exist yet. Yes, the American market is a shining jewel in Korea's eye, but it hasn't even gotten a foothold that would really provide the impetus of "making it" in America. I'm not sure BoA even made much of a splash with her efforts in her hip hop stuff. In fact, I really like her R&B sound in her Japanese works! I listen to "Possibility" a lot.
But . . . I think K-pop is doing the same straddling that SNSD is sort of doing. J-pop is, I'd say, much more an alternative to K-pop. K-pop may be more Western friendly because of its derivative nature--it doesn't sound too different, just in another language. But J-pop is its own beast and proud of it. You can see Japan's independence even in the way its management takes on artists: whereas SM is willing to recruit its trainees from other countries ('specially calling American-born Koreans back to Korea, or, heck, an American-born Chinese!), someone like Akimoto is looking to actually export his AKB48 system to other countries. Japan has always been of its own mind, not unlike America. A country like Korea is forced to play by their rules--and they will, since the money is there.
Re: Beware stream-of-consciousness ramblinggreywingMarch 25 2011, 19:25:24 UTC
Do the Japanese rappers you like also engage in social critique? Is it the lyrics that appeal? Or are we just talking about flow and rhythm?
Actually, if SNSD really did donate as much to Japan as claimed and are making the purchases that they seem to be--Sica purchasing a car for her parents with her sister, homes/apartments, covering health care insuranceas Hyo claims she does--I'm not sure we can say they have less discretionary income. The SNSD members tend to be decked out in name brands too. The question has always been "just how much money do they make?"
Oh,thosepeskydrugs. But, really, idols are probably only "clean" because they have so much image management that has to bend to social expectations. If let loose in the US, it's not so surprising to see meltdowns ala Spears and Miley Cyrus. I feel like the Korean media isn't as tenacious in digging up such scandals as the American gossip circles are.
Re: Beware stream-of-consciousness ramblingarbitrary_greayMarch 26 2011, 04:56:10 UTC
advance pop music. If anything, they’re going backwards.
No offense, but can you provide examples of advancing pop music? To me pop music is inherently about following trends, not setting them, and this goes double for Kpop which is only "refreshing" in the context of asian pop music since in reality they're following American/European trends.
this machine like model doesn’t leave a lot of room for creativity
Your proposal for the Big Companies to get more clout might actually be the way around this. My opinion is still mostly that "advance pop music" is an oxymoron, but taken in isolation it has been the Big 3 that have been trendsetters in Kpop. E-TRIBE may have written UGoGirl first, but it was Gee's success that really really cemented the trend of cut up lyrics hook songs being the way for girlgroups.And on the male side it was Yoo Young Jin doing the same with Sorry Sorry and Ring Ding Dong. Then again, "advance" is a subjective term here. Lots of people would say the rise of the rhythm hook song has been a bad thing. The funny thing is Hoot was going against most of the songwriting trends at the time. Too bad I'm so underwhelmed by that song. Good try but no cigar.
he K-pop scene cannot truly progress to the next level without more musical freedom But really, all Kpop did was progress from badlyemulating Jpop to emulating American and European music. Their advancesand trend-setting have been more in how idols are manufactured and marketed than in anything related to music.
It would be entirely pointless if all rap, past and present, resembled the Flo Rida "let's go to the club and act like abject retards". That sounds like what the American mainstream loves right now. Others have also said that Utada, Se7en, and BoA failed because they tried to conform to American styles too much and lost their unique charms.
What if it's worse?
QFT. *insert rant about singer-songwriter genre*
there should be an increase in the production of alternative acts to the idol act
Again QFT, and exactly what I was getting at by saying pop music is inherently a trend follower.
"Girlfriend" actually isn't that Jpop-y. :P Kissing You is close, but even that doesn't have the same sound as Jpop even if it has the same composition type. Now Kara's Honey on the other hand...
Re: Beware stream-of-consciousness ramblingcronodroidMarch 26 2011, 22:46:12 UTC
No offense, but can you provide examples of advancing pop music? To me pop music is inherently about following trends, not setting them, and this goes double for Kpop which is only "refreshing" in the context of asian pop music since in reality they're following American/European trends.
Of course. In the context of my statement that K-pop doesn't really do many groundbreaking things, American pop has created new trends...in pop music. Bieber: probably a microcosm of the current state of the American music industry. He came from Web 2.0, got picked up by Usher who groomed him, and now he makes teen-friendly R&B with collaborations from otherwise hardcore gangsta rappers. Ludacris? Really son? Raekwon even rapped over a Bieber track with Kanye's approval, and when Yeezy showed it to RZA, the Wu-Tang leader was all "it's cool, collaborating in the pop scene, artists need to be like water". This isn't a bad thing necessarily unless you like rap. It is groundbreaking in the sense that all the old boundaries between music have slowly been erased over the years. Rappers NEVER had anything to do with mainstream white pop (other than samples), but now the industry is completely mixed to the point where there aren't really even different genres, it's all pop.
More recent examples: T-Pain. He really brought auto-tune to mainstream attention, and now it's a regular part of life. THAT'S advancing pop music, for good or for worse.
On the Korean side, GD has demonstrated most prominently the sort of things you can do with unbridled musical freedom. Plagiarize Flo Rida for one, but his album with TOP was brilliant. Furthermore, him and the rest of the YG lads are actively collaborating with big name Western artists and producers. This is a long shot but if we extrapolate from here, it would be unprecedented to see the entire K-pop scene merged with the American pop scene where American artists are operating freely in Korea and K-pop artists are actively promoting in the US. American artists releasing a Korean language album? The thought is laughable but we've seen globalization do some weird things. Did anyone see will.i.am's Check It Out? A preview of things to come or an anomaly we should excise from our collective memories?
Your proposal for the Big Companies to get more clout might actually be the way around this. My opinion is still mostly that "advance pop music" is an oxymoron, but taken in isolation it has been the Big 3 that have been trendsetters in Kpop.
The funny thing is Hoot was going against most of the songwriting trends at the time. Too bad I'm so underwhelmed by that song. Good try but no cigar.
I really liked Hoot, it was cute and catchy. It wasn't Gee by any means but I think it was a good song. But I like all of SNSD's singles from Gee onwards a lot with RDR being my favorite.
Advance pop music cannot possibly be an oxymoron. This is based on the premise that one can't accurately fit pop music into any concrete genre tenets. Very little defines pop music other than a catchy hook. K-pop is notorious for not following genre conventions. The vast majority of songs have raps in them, you can have a slow boiling R&B track or a fast paced electronic dance track or even something like Perfection or Keep Your Head Down with heavy guitar and drums but not really being rock songs by any means. What trends are pop meant to follow if pop encompasses pretty much anything that's popular. Maybe we should call it "mainstream" music instead of pop.
That sounds like what the American mainstream loves right now. Others have also said that Utada, Se7en, and BoA failed because they tried to conform to American styles too much and lost their unique charms.
Yeah, that is what the mainstream likes right now, I was saying rap would be worthless if it was always like that. But it wasn't always like that, which is redeeming in my eyes.
I don't think it's the case that they conformed to American styles too much, K-pop is highly Americanized anyway. I don't think their unique charms would translate very well into American culture anyway.
Re: Beware stream-of-consciousness ramblingarbitrary_greayMarch 27 2011, 04:48:55 UTC
American pop has created new trends...in pop music. Cool. I'm not up to date on the American market, so I've learned a lot here from you.
Advance pop music cannot possibly be an oxymoron. My stance on this is that when a certain kind of music becomes popular eventually pop music is manufactured in that style, hence inherently trend-following. However, I agree with you that pop music considered as its own genre can be advanced, as with the examples you listed. I like pop music because it doesn't necessarily follow genre conventions. Although, compared to Jpop Kpop follows genre conventions pretty strictly with everyone releasing nothing but dance tracks right now.
I don't think it's the case that they conformed to American styles too much, K-pop is highly Americanized anyway. Why do you think they failed? I'd like to hear your take on Kpop trying to break into the West.
Re: Beware stream-of-consciousness ramblingcronodroidMarch 27 2011, 10:22:22 UTC
I honestly believe the US isn't ready for an Asian pop star. Ne-Yo is pretty much the closest we're getting at the moment, and he doesn't look Asian which is the thing.
I think there is a perception in the US that Asians are not really cut out for show biz other than a few notable exceptions, with those guys (Chow Yun-fat, Jackie Chan and Jet Li) being foreigners. I don't think there's any A-list Asian actors/actresses, the biggest star is probably John Cho, and films revolving around predominantly Asian-American themes like West 32nd and The Motel (both by Michael Kang) are few and far between. Whether this is because Asians tend to have other career aspirations or a bias inherent in the system is anyone's guess. Bruce was big though (but he was mixed).
This translates over to music too. Far East Movement seems to be a flash in the pan but other than them, there have been no big Asian-American musicians, ever. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Asian_Americans#Music It's not like Asians haven't been in the US for a long time, the Chinese and Japanese are pushing six or seven generations already, Koreans are about three generations in and Viets are one or two. Yet there have been mega famous Caucasian musicians (Elvis), African-American (Michael), Jewish (Bob Dylan), Hispanic (J-Lo), but no East Asian (or South Asian). I really have no idea why this would be the case because every nation and race are capable of making beautiful music. Yet Asian-American musicians have never had mainstream popularity or appeal.
Interestingly, the US doesn't seem to have a problem with foreign acts coming in and making a splash, mostly from Canada, Australia and the UK though. The Beatles and AC/DC are just two examples, but I think most Americans who have a fair bit of exposure to contemporary music trends could name at least one or two foreign artists.
A lot of it has to do with the quality of the songs these guys are given to break in with. Excluding Utada who writes her own stuff and is American anyway, Seven's collab with Li'l Kim was really poor compared to his Korean stuff (Digital Bounce is such a good album). I think a song like "I'm Going Crazy" or "Better Together" would've been a much better American debut, too bad it came out after he went home in defeat. BoA's Eat You Up is a fine song but it's not very advanced lyrically and very electronic. It didn't really leave a huge impression saying "Yo, I'm BoA, check it out". She really needed to storm in and grab people's attention. It was a good song since I'm a K-pop fan and know BoA quite well ever since high school, but for the average American, it was just a blip on the radar. Wonder Girls' Nobody? It hit 76 which is pretty notable, but I think the Wonder Girls' current brand of retro styled pop is not going to find a receptive audience in the US. Of course, if they move back to their old R&B stuff like "This Fool" or "Take It", etc. with some actual flavorful raps from Yoobin they could do surprisingly well. But there's still a girl group stigma and an Asian stigma that they have to fight against.
Re: Beware stream-of-consciousness ramblingcronodroidMarch 27 2011, 10:22:29 UTC
Actually, I think you're right with the "they tried to be too American" thing. It left their music feeling soulless, but I guess they're afraid Americans won't understand K-pop or something...However, if you're gonna take a risk like breaching the American market, you need to go all out and really shock the audience into paying attention. Yeah, you could get laughed out of the country, or maybe people will say "hang on, this is a great song, this dude/dudette is from Korea?!" The accent thing is bothersome though.
I wanna go back to what I said before which was the opinion of my friend who's a close associate of Seven's (she even got to go back stage at the Big Bang debut concert and have Seven introduce her to his dongsaengs...jealous). Asian guys aren't usually seen as sex symbols or even heart throbs by the mainstream media. Guys like Yunho and Seven may be the shit back home but they don't carry the traditional Western ideal of masculinity (very few Korean stars do with the exception of someone like Siwon). Sex appeal and appearances have a lot to do with how successful a lot of artists are, but if the audience you're attempting to appeal to doesn't particularly care for Asian looks, you could be boned.
That brings me to another point: target audience. Who were they for these American debuts? Young girls? They seem to be the main listeners of K-pop internationally. Lecherous old men? I don't think so. Asians? Our purchasing power is minuscule compared to the rest of the US plus there are not even as many Koreans over here as there are Viets! To think that Asians would support Asian artists because of their ethnicity would be pretty short sighted on the part of SM/YG, they know full well that it's commonly held by Asian cultures that every Asian ethnicity is dramatically different from the next. In Korea you have a clearer delineation of audience. SNSD have lots of older male fans (apparently). TVXQ have hordes of female fans of every age. Older women like Yoona. Older men like Yoona. Teenage and early to mid twenties women like 4minute (I would guess). But in the US, if you look at who likes K-pop, you couldn't get a more diverse group. SM Town LA was like the World Cultural Heritage fair, aside from a lot of Koreans you really couldn't pin down a predominant demographic aside from most people there were younger than 30.
So in order for the next debut to be a success (or Wonder Girls), I think JYP has to look carefully at who they're tailoring their music towards.
Re: Beware stream-of-consciousness ramblingcronodroidMarch 26 2011, 22:01:59 UTC
Zeebra is probably my favorite, and he does talk a lot about social issues. But I believe he's one of those Japanese ultraconservatives that wants a return to the militant days of Imperial Japan. Or at least a return to a state where Japan isn't America's bitch. I don't agree with THAT (obviously), but I enjoy hearing different perspectives. Also he has some sick flow. But walking around in a shirt bearing the Rising Sun insignia isn't cool.
Re: Beware stream-of-consciousness ramblingcronodroidMarch 26 2011, 22:16:44 UTC
No, I completely agree with your point that their self-made stuff could be absolute trash, but I think if they keep inserting small songs here and there (like Mistake) so we can get a feel for if they have any ability, that'd be cool.
However, with YG the option is there to either make your own stuff ala GD or just focus on the performance. I mean Teddy does produce the majority of their stuff anyway, but the option is there for the artists to use or not to use. SM does this to an extent with old TVXQ, but I get the feeling they're much more restrictive. Being able to have a choice is what I'm in favor of.
As a side note to that, idol rappers should always write their own rhymes. They don't deserve to be called rappers unless they do in my opinion. That's the rap game, fool! Pfft, T-ara.
You argue that less rookie groups should be produced so that the Big Three can keep their big chunks of the market in order to have the money to produce "innovative" music. But why not say that, rather than reducing the number of rookie groups being put out, there should be an increase in the production of alternative acts to the idol act? I think the advance in music you want to see would come as a result of a diversification of the musical offerings in the genres rather than this need to produce rookie groups.
That's only partially what I'm arguing. I think rookie groups have a real chance of bringing something good to the table if they're 1. properly trained and 2. given a good song. As I've replied to AG below, the small companies really rush production which is not a good thing at all. They should slow down the release of rookies rather than not make 'em at all, and do a proper job. The slowing down would be fine in my book, it gives the market some breathing room too.
Re: Beware stream-of-consciousness ramblingarbitrary_greayMarch 27 2011, 05:00:43 UTC
Being able to have a choice is what I'm in favor of. I don't know if they actually have that much of a choice. The DBSK contract reveal said that they were obligated to write songs for two albums a year. And since to stay competitive in the idol market they pretty much need to release two albums or minis a year it would likely lead to rushed writing and lower quality songs. The new Big Bang album didn't seem that good and it's probably because GD used up most of his ideas for GDTOP.
The slowing down would be fine in my book, it gives the market some breathing room too. But in the eyes of the companies producing these groups, time is money. Not only would more money need to be spent on the extended training, but the longer they wait the less time their group will exist before the inevitable death of the current idol wave, as well as more time for the Big groups to further expand and cement their fanbases(and other groups hitting it Big), which means by the time their groups is high quality and ready the wave might be over and you end up with another Black Beat or CSJH or MILK or Shinvi...you get the point.
There may also be another factor: the longer established a group, the more it might cost management to keep them. I wonder how the risk-to-create-a-successful-group vs. cost-to-keep-a-successful-group scenarios balance out.
Plus, you know how it is with any market: companies want to get while the getting is good and so everyone is on that bandwagon until, well, everyone falls off of it.
With Kara, do many people remember the days of Sunghee and Break It/If U Wanna?
Yes. Enough people remember to make other people curious. I'm not even into Kara, but the insistence of older fans in mentioning Sunghee has not only made me aware of her existence, but generates curiosity to look into it. I wouldn't be surprised if many people looked into Kara's music to compare Befoer and After just because people mentioned that there was a "better" vocal period. (Morning Musume can be like this, too, with people looking into the group's history because fans aware of the history keep talking about it.)
In fact, I would compare it to a fan like myself who constantly talks about HyoYeon. In the larger picture of things, she's the overlooked member, but I think I've talked about her enough to get people to look. It's the way fandom works: the fans have to generate the buzz that sets off the spark that leads to the wildfire.
The international music scene is a topic I wonder about and is probably too big to just address here, but I wonder if it's . . . even smart to tailor yourself to another market rather than appeal on your own merits. Too many sticky factors here.
No, American artists can't release WHATEVER they want, but you have songs like "Fuck the Police", pretty much Eminem's entire back catalog, songs sharply criticizing the US government and policies, songs that talk about explicit sex and violence and other stuff that would not fly in Korea.
This is a symptom that is telling of the audience rather than the artist themselves, I think. That is, why can't wholesome songs make it rather than this need to always be abrasive, offensive, and shocking? Isn't this why Taylor Swift is kind of a phenomenon, crossing over from Country, which really is a huge market unto itself!, to mainstream Pop with a clean image?
it still needs to be approved by the company in order to become published and distributed.
Isn't this true of any artist's works? Small indie artists have the same problem: their labels hear their songs and have to decide whether or not it's marketable.
I think there probably are avenues of getting your music heard. Remember the rapper who was dissing G-dragon? He wasn't singing on M! Countdown, but his music was known. Again, we may be too outside to see very effectively into the Korean market. It's probably the same for those outside of the American market looking into what we must listen to--and our industry is way more diverse than just Pop.
In the US, the money goes directly into drugs, groupies and opulent mansions. I would argue only a small amount comparatively goes into making the next album/concert/show.
Really? You're looking at a very small slice of the music industry pie. So few can claim to have reached that level of success when one looks at How Freakin' Big the music industry is.
Actually, anyone know a lot about the country music industry? Chely Wright's memoir kind of makes me think that it's kind of like a self-made idol world, since you do have to tailor to rules (spoken and unspoken), appearances, and genre.
Reply
It may seem crazy that I’m arguing for consolidation rather than diversification (in terms of trainees joining SM/YG/JYP for a shot rather than trying to forge their path with a new company), but that is in my opinion the best course of action if the K-pop industry continues to employ its current business model.
Yes, it’s a crapshoot too, but again I go back to the differences between the Korean market and the Western (US) one. The US one is much, much bigger than the Korean one, not only domestically but also internationally, and the US record label system, while still monopolistic, allows much greater room for musical freedom than the Korean one. In Korea from my understanding, if you’re an idol, you sing what the company wants you to sing and rarely get to participate in creating the music. Now this in and of itself isn’t necessarily a bad thing, it’s very machine like in the sense that you have people to write the songs, people to market the songs, idols to perform the songs, choreographer to create the dance and managers to take care of the rest. It’s actually ideal for entertainment value since the idols can focus solely on performing instead of writing the music, and people who actually specialize in writing take care of that.
However, this machine like model doesn’t leave a lot of room for creativity. As I believe was mentioned somewhere on this site, companies are forced to choose between churning out pop-friendly hits rather than trying something more daring, and I believe the K-pop scene cannot truly progress to the next level without more musical freedom.
This doesn’t mean I want to see some awful avant-garde rock opera concept album from Soshi. Right now, K-pop is heavily derivative of American music, but I think K-pop has the ability to become a trend setter rather than a trend follower.
How does this tie back into my point about too many new groups debuting? If it wasn’t already clear, I think all the new groups coming out are adhering far too closely to the established business model in the hopes of making a quick buck instead of trying something new. And they have the audacity to claim they’re not just out for easy money but that they’re creating something new and fresh when clearly they are not (for the most part). I don’t fault them for trying but I think as long as the current system remains in place, the chances for a new group to truly make an impact is slim. Of course one must consider whether we want to risk destroying the current system with a proven track record of pumping out hits and good groups for something more akin to the American one but with no guarantee that it will be any good. Maybe I should just bite the bullet and proclaim loudly “EVERYONE SWITCH TO THE YG SYSTEM!!”
Reply
In many ways, my post could be seen as a complaint that very few groups seem to be moving towards a genre I prefer (R&B) and are sticking with the annoying autotuned electronic/dance tinged bubblegum pop when R&B seems to be the right direction to go in. I think if the US were to suddenly get K-pop forced upon it, someone like Taeyang would be by far the most popular and respected artist, and right now as far as idols go he's very likely the idol who would have the most success as a solo artist whether in Korea or the US.
This isn't an argument or anything, just some food for thought. Korea doesn't like R&B much, for example, the new DBSK song Before U Go is really, really good, it's 90s era slow jams done right but it's being carried entirely by DBSK's popularity rather than on its musical merits. Likewise, a song like Wedding Dress which in my opinion is in the top three best K-pop songs (along with I Don't Care and You & I) wasn't really super popular in Korea compared to the other songs on Solar (and even then, the album wasn't a mega smash hit like Bonamana or Oh even though musically it was far superior to both). So R&B will just be a side thing even though it appeals the most to the American crowd that K-pop always seems to want to please. Anyway, this is just me sulking.
This is a symptom that is telling of the audience rather than the artist themselves, I think. That is, why can't wholesome songs make it rather than this need to always be abrasive, offensive, and shocking? Isn't this why Taylor Swift is kind of a phenomenon, crossing over from Country, which really is a huge market unto itself!, to mainstream Pop with a clean image?
I wasn't saying songs need to be "bad" rather than "wholesome" in order to sell or anything. But you need freedom to express yourself if you want to make better music IMO, and that occasionally means delving into darker subject matter. Rap is only respectable in my opinion because it has always been used as a instrument to illustrate social and personal problems. It would be entirely pointless if all rap, past and present, resembled the Flo Rida "let's go to the club and act like abject retards". As long as rap continues to not only talk about Big Pimpin' but also about Thug Life (the struggle), it's still good. Korean rap on the other hand...I've seen some of these lyrics and it's disappointing. I know Korea doesn't exactly have a long and illustrious history of rap music but still! But I guess that's a symptom of the society from which this music comes. I seriously doubt any idols have really experienced the same sort of life that forges the musical identities of American rappers and still choose to audition at YG or something. In fact I doubt you'll get much music out of Korea that could be called "street", so the whole "wholesome vs. offensive" thing is probably a moot point.
As a side note, the relative lack of ghetto life hasn't stopped Japan from creating some awesome rappers though. K-pop idol rappers are a joke by comparison.
Really? You're looking at a very small slice of the music industry pie. So few can claim to have reached that level of success when one looks at How Freakin' Big the music industry is.
Haha, I don't really want to discuss this point much, but my point is that I'm going to make the claim that American artists have a lot more discretionary income than their Korean counterparts. Also, drugs are a lot more easily obtained over here than over there. But lol.
Reply
I would not argue against freedom of artistry--but only if that's what an individual really wants . . . and, in the company's eyes, can be marketable. (Because if you're letting a big act suddenly produce music that doesn't sell, well, you've got some revenue issues in terms of wanting to re-invest in an artist for them to produce more music.) I have to point to SNSD's own Deep Talk interview. Not all the SNSD members have the same goal. Some would sacrifice in the talent area in order to achieve fame and recognition. Others would take a hit in popularity in order to be seen as talented artists. Not all these would-be stars/idols necessarily want to create their own music and though I've come off as thinking producing one's own work as necessary before, I've been shaken out of my own tunnel vision. It's not really necessarily if, what you're aiming to be, is a performer/entertainer. And, really, what if they're not really that creative? What if their music turns out to be the same humdrum stuff we hear? What if it's worse? D: So, really, we should just be hissing at the composer and arrangers that the management companies are hiring and the unwillingness of perhaps these composers to branch out from a winning formula.
I think we've ended up talking around the issue. You argue that less rookie groups should be produced so that the Big Three can keep their big chunks of the market in order to have the money to produce "innovative" music. But why not say that, rather than reducing the number of rookie groups being put out, there should be an increase in the production of alternative acts to the idol act? I think the advance in music you want to see would come as a result of a diversification of the musical offerings in the genres rather than this need to produce rookie groups. Shoring up the idol business model may not be the answer; you can even look to big companies to actually support their non-idol artists who do offer music alternative to the usual pop. SM has a few that we never really hear from and that don't get the promotional machine behind them like SNSD does. *cue sighing and gnashing of teeth from fans who think talents are being wasted, dum de dum*
Of course, if really want you want is hot artists to look at who will dress up in funky costumes and dance all over the stage, then you're stuck with an idol system. But it doesn't have to be like that.
The problem, really, may lie in how small the Korean market is. If I'm to believe Wiki, the biggest music market is America, followed by . . . Japan. (Think about how crazy that is, this little island having the second biggest music market?!) Thus, is it any wonder that Korea tries so hard to export to Japan? And Japan does have a diverse market. What Korea could bring to Japan is a new model for the idol market as opposed to the kind of slapdash idol market that's big in Japan. Yet that does mean that they're going to have to cater to the bigger market's tastes, so what we see in K-pop right now is them trying to figure out what J-pop likes. (Ah, memories, remember when we were all saying that "Girlfriend" on the TMYW album sounded like it came straight out of J-pop and anime music?)
Reply
But if you want to argue J-pop music arrangements vs. K-pop, I'mma leave that to AG. Really, I wouldn't mind a fusion of K-pop and J-pop, that is, take the talent grinding of K-pop (which will also give you those pretty girls to look at, if that's what you need to enjoy the music) and let some of the crazy minds of J-pop write the songs for them. You argue that R&B is the "right" direction to move toward . . . maybe if you want to break into the American market. But the Japanese market is all for embracing a fellow bubblegum pop group. It's all in what market you're aiming for, and Korea will be happy taking Yen as much as it would Dollars (especially from J-wota who are all for buying ridiculous amounts of albums in order to support their groups). The Korean management companies have seen that the US isn't open to welcoming them yet--and I agree with this, as the only non-English language sung in songs on American radios is Spanish--and so it's moved to a market that will embrace them, Japan. Your arguments are very West-centric, whereas the K-pop industry has been quite steadily moving East for years. The interest in K-pop in America is almost entirely Internet-grown, while the interest in K-pop in Japan is actually through promotions and distribution. Can we buy American versions of their releases? No. America isn't really a market for K-pop yet, so this focus on K-pop's "need" to cater to American tastes doesn't quite exist yet. Yes, the American market is a shining jewel in Korea's eye, but it hasn't even gotten a foothold that would really provide the impetus of "making it" in America. I'm not sure BoA even made much of a splash with her efforts in her hip hop stuff. In fact, I really like her R&B sound in her Japanese works! I listen to "Possibility" a lot.
But . . . I think K-pop is doing the same straddling that SNSD is sort of doing. J-pop is, I'd say, much more an alternative to K-pop. K-pop may be more Western friendly because of its derivative nature--it doesn't sound too different, just in another language. But J-pop is its own beast and proud of it. You can see Japan's independence even in the way its management takes on artists: whereas SM is willing to recruit its trainees from other countries ('specially calling American-born Koreans back to Korea, or, heck, an American-born Chinese!), someone like Akimoto is looking to actually export his AKB48 system to other countries. Japan has always been of its own mind, not unlike America. A country like Korea is forced to play by their rules--and they will, since the money is there.
Reply
Actually, if SNSD really did donate as much to Japan as claimed and are making the purchases that they seem to be--Sica purchasing a car for her parents with her sister, homes/apartments, covering health care insuranceas Hyo claims she does--I'm not sure we can say they have less discretionary income. The SNSD members tend to be decked out in name brands too. The question has always been "just how much money do they make?"
Oh, those pesky drugs. But, really, idols are probably only "clean" because they have so much image management that has to bend to social expectations. If let loose in the US, it's not so surprising to see meltdowns ala Spears and Miley Cyrus. I feel like the Korean media isn't as tenacious in digging up such scandals as the American gossip circles are.
Reply
No offense, but can you provide examples of advancing pop music? To me pop music is inherently about following trends, not setting them, and this goes double for Kpop which is only "refreshing" in the context of asian pop music since in reality they're following American/European trends.
this machine like model doesn’t leave a lot of room for creativity
Your proposal for the Big Companies to get more clout might actually be the way around this. My opinion is still mostly that "advance pop music" is an oxymoron, but taken in isolation it has been the Big 3 that have been trendsetters in Kpop. E-TRIBE may have written UGoGirl first, but it was Gee's success that really really cemented the trend of cut up lyrics hook songs being the way for girlgroups.And on the male side it was Yoo Young Jin doing the same with Sorry Sorry and Ring Ding Dong. Then again, "advance" is a subjective term here. Lots of people would say the rise of the rhythm hook song has been a bad thing.
The funny thing is Hoot was going against most of the songwriting trends at the time. Too bad I'm so underwhelmed by that song. Good try but no cigar.
he K-pop scene cannot truly progress to the next level without more musical freedom
But really, all Kpop did was progress from badlyemulating Jpop to emulating American and European music. Their advancesand trend-setting have been more in how idols are manufactured and marketed than in anything related to music.
It would be entirely pointless if all rap, past and present, resembled the Flo Rida "let's go to the club and act like abject retards".
That sounds like what the American mainstream loves right now.
Others have also said that Utada, Se7en, and BoA failed because they tried to conform to American styles too much and lost their unique charms.
What if it's worse?
QFT. *insert rant about singer-songwriter genre*
there should be an increase in the production of alternative acts to the idol act
Again QFT, and exactly what I was getting at by saying pop music is inherently a trend follower.
"Girlfriend" actually isn't that Jpop-y. :P Kissing You is close, but even that doesn't have the same sound as Jpop even if it has the same composition type. Now Kara's Honey on the other hand...
Reply
Of course. In the context of my statement that K-pop doesn't really do many groundbreaking things, American pop has created new trends...in pop music. Bieber: probably a microcosm of the current state of the American music industry. He came from Web 2.0, got picked up by Usher who groomed him, and now he makes teen-friendly R&B with collaborations from otherwise hardcore gangsta rappers. Ludacris? Really son? Raekwon even rapped over a Bieber track with Kanye's approval, and when Yeezy showed it to RZA, the Wu-Tang leader was all "it's cool, collaborating in the pop scene, artists need to be like water". This isn't a bad thing necessarily unless you like rap. It is groundbreaking in the sense that all the old boundaries between music have slowly been erased over the years. Rappers NEVER had anything to do with mainstream white pop (other than samples), but now the industry is completely mixed to the point where there aren't really even different genres, it's all pop.
More recent examples: T-Pain. He really brought auto-tune to mainstream attention, and now it's a regular part of life. THAT'S advancing pop music, for good or for worse.
On the Korean side, GD has demonstrated most prominently the sort of things you can do with unbridled musical freedom. Plagiarize Flo Rida for one, but his album with TOP was brilliant. Furthermore, him and the rest of the YG lads are actively collaborating with big name Western artists and producers. This is a long shot but if we extrapolate from here, it would be unprecedented to see the entire K-pop scene merged with the American pop scene where American artists are operating freely in Korea and K-pop artists are actively promoting in the US. American artists releasing a Korean language album? The thought is laughable but we've seen globalization do some weird things. Did anyone see will.i.am's Check It Out? A preview of things to come or an anomaly we should excise from our collective memories?
Your proposal for the Big Companies to get more clout might actually be the way around this. My opinion is still mostly that "advance pop music" is an oxymoron, but taken in isolation it has been the Big 3 that have been trendsetters in Kpop.
The funny thing is Hoot was going against most of the songwriting trends at the time. Too bad I'm so underwhelmed by that song. Good try but no cigar.
I really liked Hoot, it was cute and catchy. It wasn't Gee by any means but I think it was a good song. But I like all of SNSD's singles from Gee onwards a lot with RDR being my favorite.
Advance pop music cannot possibly be an oxymoron. This is based on the premise that one can't accurately fit pop music into any concrete genre tenets. Very little defines pop music other than a catchy hook. K-pop is notorious for not following genre conventions. The vast majority of songs have raps in them, you can have a slow boiling R&B track or a fast paced electronic dance track or even something like Perfection or Keep Your Head Down with heavy guitar and drums but not really being rock songs by any means. What trends are pop meant to follow if pop encompasses pretty much anything that's popular. Maybe we should call it "mainstream" music instead of pop.
That sounds like what the American mainstream loves right now.
Others have also said that Utada, Se7en, and BoA failed because they tried to conform to American styles too much and lost their unique charms.
Yeah, that is what the mainstream likes right now, I was saying rap would be worthless if it was always like that. But it wasn't always like that, which is redeeming in my eyes.
I don't think it's the case that they conformed to American styles too much, K-pop is highly Americanized anyway. I don't think their unique charms would translate very well into American culture anyway.
Reply
Cool. I'm not up to date on the American market, so I've learned a lot here from you.
Advance pop music cannot possibly be an oxymoron.
My stance on this is that when a certain kind of music becomes popular eventually pop music is manufactured in that style, hence inherently trend-following.
However, I agree with you that pop music considered as its own genre can be advanced, as with the examples you listed. I like pop music because it doesn't necessarily follow genre conventions.
Although, compared to Jpop Kpop follows genre conventions pretty strictly with everyone releasing nothing but dance tracks right now.
I don't think it's the case that they conformed to American styles too much, K-pop is highly Americanized anyway.
Why do you think they failed? I'd like to hear your take on Kpop trying to break into the West.
Reply
I think there is a perception in the US that Asians are not really cut out for show biz other than a few notable exceptions, with those guys (Chow Yun-fat, Jackie Chan and Jet Li) being foreigners. I don't think there's any A-list Asian actors/actresses, the biggest star is probably John Cho, and films revolving around predominantly Asian-American themes like West 32nd and The Motel (both by Michael Kang) are few and far between. Whether this is because Asians tend to have other career aspirations or a bias inherent in the system is anyone's guess. Bruce was big though (but he was mixed).
This translates over to music too. Far East Movement seems to be a flash in the pan but other than them, there have been no big Asian-American musicians, ever.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Asian_Americans#Music
It's not like Asians haven't been in the US for a long time, the Chinese and Japanese are pushing six or seven generations already, Koreans are about three generations in and Viets are one or two. Yet there have been mega famous Caucasian musicians (Elvis), African-American (Michael), Jewish (Bob Dylan), Hispanic (J-Lo), but no East Asian (or South Asian). I really have no idea why this would be the case because every nation and race are capable of making beautiful music. Yet Asian-American musicians have never had mainstream popularity or appeal.
Interestingly, the US doesn't seem to have a problem with foreign acts coming in and making a splash, mostly from Canada, Australia and the UK though. The Beatles and AC/DC are just two examples, but I think most Americans who have a fair bit of exposure to contemporary music trends could name at least one or two foreign artists.
A lot of it has to do with the quality of the songs these guys are given to break in with. Excluding Utada who writes her own stuff and is American anyway, Seven's collab with Li'l Kim was really poor compared to his Korean stuff (Digital Bounce is such a good album). I think a song like "I'm Going Crazy" or "Better Together" would've been a much better American debut, too bad it came out after he went home in defeat. BoA's Eat You Up is a fine song but it's not very advanced lyrically and very electronic. It didn't really leave a huge impression saying "Yo, I'm BoA, check it out". She really needed to storm in and grab people's attention. It was a good song since I'm a K-pop fan and know BoA quite well ever since high school, but for the average American, it was just a blip on the radar. Wonder Girls' Nobody? It hit 76 which is pretty notable, but I think the Wonder Girls' current brand of retro styled pop is not going to find a receptive audience in the US. Of course, if they move back to their old R&B stuff like "This Fool" or "Take It", etc. with some actual flavorful raps from Yoobin they could do surprisingly well. But there's still a girl group stigma and an Asian stigma that they have to fight against.
Reply
I wanna go back to what I said before which was the opinion of my friend who's a close associate of Seven's (she even got to go back stage at the Big Bang debut concert and have Seven introduce her to his dongsaengs...jealous). Asian guys aren't usually seen as sex symbols or even heart throbs by the mainstream media. Guys like Yunho and Seven may be the shit back home but they don't carry the traditional Western ideal of masculinity (very few Korean stars do with the exception of someone like Siwon). Sex appeal and appearances have a lot to do with how successful a lot of artists are, but if the audience you're attempting to appeal to doesn't particularly care for Asian looks, you could be boned.
That brings me to another point: target audience. Who were they for these American debuts? Young girls? They seem to be the main listeners of K-pop internationally. Lecherous old men? I don't think so. Asians? Our purchasing power is minuscule compared to the rest of the US plus there are not even as many Koreans over here as there are Viets! To think that Asians would support Asian artists because of their ethnicity would be pretty short sighted on the part of SM/YG, they know full well that it's commonly held by Asian cultures that every Asian ethnicity is dramatically different from the next. In Korea you have a clearer delineation of audience. SNSD have lots of older male fans (apparently). TVXQ have hordes of female fans of every age. Older women like Yoona. Older men like Yoona. Teenage and early to mid twenties women like 4minute (I would guess). But in the US, if you look at who likes K-pop, you couldn't get a more diverse group. SM Town LA was like the World Cultural Heritage fair, aside from a lot of Koreans you really couldn't pin down a predominant demographic aside from most people there were younger than 30.
So in order for the next debut to be a success (or Wonder Girls), I think JYP has to look carefully at who they're tailoring their music towards.
Reply
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vy_xytdWrA
Okay, maybe it is a little cool.
Reply
However, with YG the option is there to either make your own stuff ala GD or just focus on the performance. I mean Teddy does produce the majority of their stuff anyway, but the option is there for the artists to use or not to use. SM does this to an extent with old TVXQ, but I get the feeling they're much more restrictive. Being able to have a choice is what I'm in favor of.
As a side note to that, idol rappers should always write their own rhymes. They don't deserve to be called rappers unless they do in my opinion. That's the rap game, fool! Pfft, T-ara.
You argue that less rookie groups should be produced so that the Big Three can keep their big chunks of the market in order to have the money to produce "innovative" music. But why not say that, rather than reducing the number of rookie groups being put out, there should be an increase in the production of alternative acts to the idol act? I think the advance in music you want to see would come as a result of a diversification of the musical offerings in the genres rather than this need to produce rookie groups.
That's only partially what I'm arguing. I think rookie groups have a real chance of bringing something good to the table if they're 1. properly trained and 2. given a good song. As I've replied to AG below, the small companies really rush production which is not a good thing at all. They should slow down the release of rookies rather than not make 'em at all, and do a proper job. The slowing down would be fine in my book, it gives the market some breathing room too.
Reply
I don't know if they actually have that much of a choice. The DBSK contract reveal said that they were obligated to write songs for two albums a year. And since to stay competitive in the idol market they pretty much need to release two albums or minis a year it would likely lead to rushed writing and lower quality songs. The new Big Bang album didn't seem that good and it's probably because GD used up most of his ideas for GDTOP.
The slowing down would be fine in my book, it gives the market some breathing room too.
But in the eyes of the companies producing these groups, time is money. Not only would more money need to be spent on the extended training, but the longer they wait the less time their group will exist before the inevitable death of the current idol wave, as well as more time for the Big groups to further expand and cement their fanbases(and other groups hitting it Big), which means by the time their groups is high quality and ready the wave might be over and you end up with another Black Beat or CSJH or MILK or Shinvi...you get the point.
Reply
Leave a comment