A conversation continuation of a discussion, Part 2

[arbitrary_greay]

Wow, my very first "post too large" error. I feel accomplished.

Same conversation log continued from part 1 below.

Comments

[askbask]

Sorry, been on vacation to Thailand and come at this quite late.

I can understand the choice but it does make it harder to debate specific points because I've just read a long long conversation and don't quite know what to grab hold of. Even though you and grey talk about lots of interesting things I'd like to hear more of and talk about at any time.

Anyway, what you and grey discussed was, among other things, the role of k-pop or the industry or fans of k-pop, their responsibility - but what the author of the seoulbeats article did was launch a series of specific attacks, and in a way that makes for an incredibly bad outset for that debate.

First off she goes off on a personal attack on a french girl who's decided to join a girl group in Korea. People have different dreams, different artistical attributes, hopes, ambitions, they fit in somewhere and not other places, they take whatever chances they get - surely this french girl must be able to join whichever band she wants wherever in the world. The system that leads to certain constellations in pop culture is definitely a target for criticism - this girl isn't.

Now if she said - "some people have praised this as an important step, but it's not really and shines a light on.." or the equivalent, and launched a debate from there: Great! But no, this Olivia should feel ashamed for what she's done, it's an actively offensive move on her part.

In addition, there's "no argument in support of welcoming white people into the K-pop scene". So blocking a skin color from any activity in a nation's public scene is the right solution. You will have to take me very far into the woods for apartheid to seem like a good idea. Additionally she completely ignores people born in Korea with white skin, naturalized citizens, and whatever wonderful combination of factors we come across in this global world. But no, not even any arguments can be had, racism is law.

A preposterous article written by what seems to be a grade A asshole. Any article about an important topic is not good simply because it's about a topic worth discussion.

[arbitrary_greay]

Just throw out any quote and I'd be happy to elaborate. Or PM me a time you'd be in chat, and I'll do my best to be there.

Re-reading the article, I'm not getting any of this "personal attack on Olivia" bent you're getting.
"Well, if we’re working under the assumptions that Olivia has no ulterior motives in being a K-pop star apart from the chance to pursue her passion of performing and entertaining, and if we’re talking in purely objective terms of shoulds and should-nots, then sure - there’s no reason to treat Olivia any differently than any other K-pop idol. But this doesn’t negate the fact that Olivia’s debut as a white K-pop idol is at a critical junction of the intersection between Hallyu and the Western K-pop market. One cannot fairly assess Olivia making her K-pop debut as a white woman without considering the greater context of whiteness and its place in K-pop."

It's not simply about Olivia and her debut. It's about the implications of it, which goes beyond Olivia and her dreams.

The first section is simply a "let's see how the financials roll" argument, which operates in its own framework independent of any right or wrong judgments.

You mentioned in your last comment about how the pale skin and wide eyes aesthetic in Asia is not necessarily an elevation of white people as a superior race. I agree with this.
However, some of the other examples listed ("close-ups of white audience members during music show broadcasts; music video casting calls open only to white women") cannot be so easily dismissed. Even if it is simply a body image aesthetic that happens to favor features Europeans commonly have over that of other races, (which is the context in which I take Taeyeon's "pretty for a black woman" comment) it has implications on Kpop's relationship with body image, and Olivia's debut reinforces some of those implications, whether or not it's about her race or only her looks.

The article then segues into the main point, which is about Asian representation on a global scale. It is here that the article does not address minority representation within Asian pop culture and the issue of xenophobia in Asia. You and Frank were right to point that out, because it is still an issue that should be addressed. We've seen white celebrities speaking fluent Korean have their day in the limelight as a short lived novelty thing, and that is very problematic.

But the issue that the article champions instead, that of Asian representation on a global scale, is equally important and is not to be dismissed simply because the writer chose not to address Asian xenophobia. These two issues are independent of each other, and the article writer specifically says that her article is talking about the implications of Olivia's debut as it intersects with the international expansion of Kpop, particularly beyond Asia into Western spheres, and therefore the impact on the potential international audience, and not just the home crowd.

This analogy expresses how I feel about it: It is not about apartheid.