A conversation continuation of a discussion, Part 1
So I made a post on Monday that linked to a rather polarizing article. All week, I was turning over in my mind how to respond to the comments made, but could not for the life of me make them into pretty comment-essay form. As with another conversation I had in April, (the giant one linked in part 2) one of the reasons for this was that the feelings associated with the arguments I was formulating were very, very personal, to where it didn't feel right to make them into a unified and polished brick of text, detached from me in a way through its organized form. I kind of needed an immediate soundboard/source of feedback that could respond even while I was in the middle of expression, before I got bogged down in syntax and diction precision obsession. Basically, I needed to have this discussion in a real-time chat format, rather than my usual preference for time-delayed block responses.
So today, I managed to have that chat with Greywing. Although I originally intended just to throw out some comments as a quick check on some of the points I was going to use in my planned replies, it turned into an environment where I could spew out all of the wide variety of analogies and connections I was making to the issue raised by this article. I probably would have culled a great deal of it in comment form in order to more directly interact with the points of the comments I'd be replying to, as well as to tighten up the writing itself, so here you can see how much I actually tend to wiki walk in my brain from any given starting point.
Italics and in square brackets were added in post.
So were all hyperlinks.
Greywing: I finally visited FFA and noticed that article
Arbitrary Greay: and?
Greywing: I left a reply
Arbitrary Greay: cool
Greywing: but
I also couldn't help but think, on the part of the other replies:
white male privilege defensiveness
Arbitrary Greay: I was thinking about how it's analogous to gender representation
people aren't demanding that magical girl teams start having a token male
Greywing: the article itself is written in a very
confrontational manner
it's why discussion and discourse closes down
because one side is too busy defending itself
Arbitrary Greay: whereas power rangers teams are lauded if they show better gender equality
even though some magical girl teams do have a token male
oh gawd, "Tatiana Maslany as the clones being SNSD "
that is fucking amazing
shitttttt
tatianamaslany48
ttm48
but yeah, afterwards I started feeling that the feelings in the article that I agree with
come primarily from an asian american standpoint
and may not apply to kpop as a korean product
Greywing: I think it is definitely problematic to think of K-pop as some escape for Asian Americans
Arbitrary Greay: I don't
it's problematic when claiming attempts to happen
Greywing: not you
but the article
Arbitrary Greay: otherwise
Greywing: no
because
I don't see how that isn't a problematic form of appropriation too
Arbitrary Greay: simply acting as an escapist space
Greywing: that is
to say
"Oh, since Americans can't make it in America, go make it in Korea!"
if you are going to criticize a French woman for it
why not an Asian American?
Arbitrary Greay: That's partially why I'm hesitant to post a reply yet
I don't know how I feel about "foreigners" in Asian pop
black-asian artists are lauded
Greywing: I think that's what's problematic especially about that article
Arbitrary Greay: there are more than a few black japanese artists that are doing well
Greywing: that it is isn't critical of national lines, only ethnic
Arbitrary Greay: how would I feel about a black european or american debuting in Jpop, though?
or Kpop
what with the discussion about racism against Michelle on Kpop star
Yeah, I have mixed feelings about all of the appropriation stuff too
does it have the same sting for asians to appropriate black culture
since they aren't under white privilege?
Greywing: I think it's also the assumption that a French woman wouldn't have a hard time in France
Arbitrary Greay: and weren't a part of the american history that makes black culture appropriation such a sticking point?
Greywing: that's narrow-minded in its own way
it's completely valid to say there is a problem of representation in the USA
Arbitrary Greay: because I think about the appropriation of latin music into pop music by all cultures
Greywing: but that doesn't translate into "THE ASIAN MARKET MUST BE WHAT I WANT IT TO BE"
Arbitrary Greay: iroppoi jirettai by MM, for instance, being unapologetically flamenco
one of my favorite singles of theirs
[Sidebar: flamenco comes to mind first because of this conversation that began with a review of a Kpop flamenco song]
and jazz is what it is now because jews sunk their culture's music into its black origins
I saw another separate article singling out the decision to put a white girl in the group as a poor one
but for financial reasons
not a moral justification (using equality as a reason)
Greywing: financially how?
Arbitrary Greay: they said it didn't work with a white girl that made a Jpop debut after getting popular with her covers on Youtube
because it doesn't have the right target audience
the people who made said girl popular on youtube
were usually fellow fandubbers or dance coverers
Greywing: that makes sense
Arbitrary Greay: which is not the demographic that makes jpop financially successful
I don't know if this applies to Kpop
since there's slightly less of an attempt to brand idols as "normal people"
what with all of the hyperbole pertaining to their talents
in that sense, the kpop idol scene is a better place for a non-asian to debut than the jpop idol scene
Greywing: the language barrier would be my worry
because variety is where you cut your teeth
and the interviews
and if you don't speak the language
it's harder for you to get attention
Arbitrary Greay: yeah
Greywing: unless you have some kind of X-factor
Arbitrary Greay: aka already successful in the place that speaks your home language
but despite how it is problematic for asian americans to claim kpop for their own uses
there is grounds for kpop to have some responsibility
at the point at which they themselves clamor for a spot on the global stage
set themselves up as equals to international acts
Greywing: sure
they have shamelessly plumbed international waters for talent
Arbitrary Greay: then they begin to play a role in asian representation on the whole in global media
Greywing: which is actually why I think the "K-pop is only for ASIANS" argument loses additional ground
Arbitrary Greay: not necessarily
as in
Greywing: because I think K-pop, or the management companies, will take whatever path to break into an international market
Arbitrary Greay: they do represent a chance to prove that asians can be global stars
Greywing: do they?
Arbitrary Greay: like interracial couples
Greywing: the best path
has proven to be a fluke
Arbitrary Greay: vs same race couples
in media
Greywing: Gangnam Style, the huge hit
was less intentional promotion
and more happy coincidence
Arbitrary Greay: which one is better for more ethnic equality in media
Greywing: (and his follow up song was terrible)
AND
the spirit of the song
Arbitrary Greay: do same race couples promote segregation, or do interracial couples promote mighty whitey?
Greywing: was also lost in translation
or rather
lack of translation
what you got was a goofy Asian man
doing a goofy dance
Arbitrary Greay: that article was invoking mighty whitey as a reason why kpop shouldn't include a white girl
now, "kpop is for asians" is a problematic thing
in the homogenizing of "asian"
but as for the inclusion of a white girl I can see her point
Greywing: but why
that is
in the context of Korea as well
the homogeneity of Korea
they may look to the West to glorify traits
but a French woman is also an "exotic" thing
Arbitrary Greay: there, it becomes a question of when does appropriation stop being appropriation because the appropriated thing has become truly global culture?
I've felt some impulses to scoff at "appropriation of black culture!" rants before
because on some level hip hop culture has become global culture
so is it really appropriation anymore? [And, shouldn't it be considered a good thing that black culture is seen as the cool thing, rather than something inferior to be reviled and rejected in favor of white culture?]
and analogy in gender again
Greywing: I'm not even on appropriation
Arbitrary Greay: if females are praising female traits
Greywing: I'm on fetishization
that is
we are on the outside looking in
but
Arbitrary Greay: does it become sexist just because a man is praising female traits?
Greywing: what are the internal discussions?
what are the Korean reactions?
are they "DON'T LET A WHITE PERSON IN!!!"
or are they "OOOOOH, French woman!"
Arbitrary Greay: and which reaction would be worse?
Greywing: I'm not talking about better or worse
but like I said
the anger of the article
is coming from an "outside" place
it's coming, that is
Arbitrary Greay: which on the level of expression of personal opinion, might have some leeway of "fine"
Greywing: from a marginalized place
but
in Korea
what is "marginalized"?
Arbitrary Greay: but on the level of "you should agree with me," becomes problematic
Greywing: in K-pop, what is the problematic roadway?
Arbitrary Greay: see, this goes right back to my feelings on feminist interpretations of things like anime [ 1, 2, 3]
the outside perspective might find some shows progressive and refreshing
but if in the homeland it's [misogynistic] fap fodder
Greywing: yes
because you don't have that layer of "normalized" that is the norms in the home culture
I think a lot about international fans of canon femmeslash
the Singaporeans, the Taiwanese, the where-have-you in marginalized spaces that watch Lost Girl and Orphan Black and see LESBIANS and are SO EXCITED
and yet these women look nothing like them and live in circumstances unlike theirs
and it's that "THIS THING IS LIKE ME"
and I see that here
"THESE ASIANS LOOK LIKE ME!"
Arbitrary Greay: hmm
Greywing: and yet . . . they aren't
Arbitrary Greay: can we extend this analogy
Greywing: it's escapist, as you've used
Arbitrary Greay: a white girl invading escapist asian space in music
the analogy would be a straight man invading gay space?
Greywing: not even that
Asian American invading over-the-seas cuilture
weeaboos
koreaboos
no?
Arbitrary Greay: implied audience here
a white girl invading escapist asian space in music for asian americans
or non national asian asian ethinicities
vs. a straight man invading a lesbian space for international lesbians in a western show??
does that comparison work?
Greywing: I'm not sure I'd draw comparisons
because that wasn't what I was drawing
that last road especially is problematic
I mean
some of the best femmeslash fanfics of my childhood were written by straight presumably white men
[sidebar: relevant real-life instance and its implications]
Arbitrary Greay: and some of the best lesbian couples in media were also written by straight men
[I was thinking of UK Skins' Naomi/Emily here]
Greywing: in fact, most of them
Arbitrary Greay: but that's slightly different
Greywing: Willow and Tara
[Taking the popular subtext and canon lesbian couples from After Ellen, out of the seven most used writers on Xena, the first six names are male, 3/5 for Buffy, 5/6 for Once Upon a Time, and 2/2 for Orphan Black. This doesn't take into account who the showrunners and major producers are, though. For example, Emily Andras for Lost Girl hasn't actually penned that many episodes herself. Which is a good thing, probably, considering the Smash disaster, but IMDB doesn't have a "showrunner" spot in the cast and crew list.)
Arbitrary Greay: that's more like white males writing asian girl idol pop
Greywing: not PLL [Pretty Little Liars]
hrm, not Grey's [Grey's Anatomy]
Arbitrary Greay: which is sending up no flags
and is really common
Greywing: what I was getting at
is sympathetic/empathetic identification
where the audience clings to one common factor
and yet almost all other factors are drowned out
so that it's hard not to feel violated when that one thing is compromised
Arbitrary Greay: but with what you said before about how the reception might be different in korea
with my anime example before
it was where something was "good" from the outside, but promotes "bad" on the homegrounds
here
white girl in a kpop group
might be "good" on the homeground (combat korean xenophobia)
might be "bad" on the outside (compromise global asian representation)
the article focusses on the latter, obviously
while frank's comment looked at the former
Greywing: I don't think either view can be totally isolated, as by this point K-pop is pretty much a ho for money wherever it can find it, but I see defensiveness on both sides that is closing dialogue as well as field of perception
Arbitrary Greay: how to make those views interact, though
they're operating in different frameworks
Greywing: it's hard when you really have only one side XD
Arbitrary Greay: with opposing solutions
Greywing: language barrier
that "thing that looks like its ours but actually isn't ours because it's in a different culture" barrier rears its head
like if a straight man told me how I should act like a lesbian, I'd be pretty upset
Arbitrary Greay: but again, white males write asian girl idol pop all of the time
putting words in their mouths, you could say
male producers of girlgroups
Greywing: which get translated into worse derck
Arbitrary Greay: that have creative control
Greywing: dreck*
but that's just it, isn't it?
where do the Asian American kids get off telling the k-pop market when they've bought into all the marketing produced by the white structure behind the scnes?
if K-pop doesn't want to be homegrown
then shouldn't it amalgamate the way it wants to?
they have literally
Arbitrary Greay: on the other hand
if Kpop doesn't want to be homegrown
Greywing: they have thrown just about everything at the wall
Arbitrary Greay: don't they also have to listen to the demands of the non-homegrown customers?
Greywing: to see what will and will not stick
no
because that demand?
is also a niche
and they want to reach farther
Arbitrary Greay: true
Greywing: and they want to see what works
Arbitrary Greay: demands on non-homegrown customers is more than asian ethnicities
Greywing: if the paying market prefers fetishized Asian women
it will revert to that
but they won't know if the white woman in a group may or may not work
until they try
honestly
it all comes down to $$$
I've never seen otherwise with the K-pop market
Arbitrary Greay: defaulting to "let's see how the financials roll" isn't really an answer to the discussion at hand, though
just another framework
Greywing: but the thing is
Arbitrary Greay: because the financials say something about the social structures underneath
Greywing: if the institution isn't concerned with the social politics
and more concerned with the bottom financial line
it invalidates a lot of concerns
Continued in part 2 above!
So today, I managed to have that chat with Greywing. Although I originally intended just to throw out some comments as a quick check on some of the points I was going to use in my planned replies, it turned into an environment where I could spew out all of the wide variety of analogies and connections I was making to the issue raised by this article. I probably would have culled a great deal of it in comment form in order to more directly interact with the points of the comments I'd be replying to, as well as to tighten up the writing itself, so here you can see how much I actually tend to wiki walk in my brain from any given starting point.
Italics and in square brackets were added in post.
So were all hyperlinks.
Greywing: I finally visited FFA and noticed that article
Arbitrary Greay: and?
Greywing: I left a reply
Arbitrary Greay: cool
Greywing: but
I also couldn't help but think, on the part of the other replies:
white male privilege defensiveness
Arbitrary Greay: I was thinking about how it's analogous to gender representation
people aren't demanding that magical girl teams start having a token male
Greywing: the article itself is written in a very
confrontational manner
it's why discussion and discourse closes down
because one side is too busy defending itself
Arbitrary Greay: whereas power rangers teams are lauded if they show better gender equality
even though some magical girl teams do have a token male
oh gawd, "Tatiana Maslany as the clones being SNSD "
that is fucking amazing
shitttttt
tatianamaslany48
ttm48
but yeah, afterwards I started feeling that the feelings in the article that I agree with
come primarily from an asian american standpoint
and may not apply to kpop as a korean product
Greywing: I think it is definitely problematic to think of K-pop as some escape for Asian Americans
Arbitrary Greay: I don't
it's problematic when claiming attempts to happen
Greywing: not you
but the article
Arbitrary Greay: otherwise
Greywing: no
because
I don't see how that isn't a problematic form of appropriation too
Arbitrary Greay: simply acting as an escapist space
Greywing: that is
to say
"Oh, since Americans can't make it in America, go make it in Korea!"
if you are going to criticize a French woman for it
why not an Asian American?
Arbitrary Greay: That's partially why I'm hesitant to post a reply yet
I don't know how I feel about "foreigners" in Asian pop
black-asian artists are lauded
Greywing: I think that's what's problematic especially about that article
Arbitrary Greay: there are more than a few black japanese artists that are doing well
Greywing: that it is isn't critical of national lines, only ethnic
Arbitrary Greay: how would I feel about a black european or american debuting in Jpop, though?
or Kpop
what with the discussion about racism against Michelle on Kpop star
Yeah, I have mixed feelings about all of the appropriation stuff too
does it have the same sting for asians to appropriate black culture
since they aren't under white privilege?
Greywing: I think it's also the assumption that a French woman wouldn't have a hard time in France
Arbitrary Greay: and weren't a part of the american history that makes black culture appropriation such a sticking point?
Greywing: that's narrow-minded in its own way
it's completely valid to say there is a problem of representation in the USA
Arbitrary Greay: because I think about the appropriation of latin music into pop music by all cultures
Greywing: but that doesn't translate into "THE ASIAN MARKET MUST BE WHAT I WANT IT TO BE"
Arbitrary Greay: iroppoi jirettai by MM, for instance, being unapologetically flamenco
one of my favorite singles of theirs
[Sidebar: flamenco comes to mind first because of this conversation that began with a review of a Kpop flamenco song]
and jazz is what it is now because jews sunk their culture's music into its black origins
I saw another separate article singling out the decision to put a white girl in the group as a poor one
but for financial reasons
not a moral justification (using equality as a reason)
Greywing: financially how?
Arbitrary Greay: they said it didn't work with a white girl that made a Jpop debut after getting popular with her covers on Youtube
because it doesn't have the right target audience
the people who made said girl popular on youtube
were usually fellow fandubbers or dance coverers
Greywing: that makes sense
Arbitrary Greay: which is not the demographic that makes jpop financially successful
I don't know if this applies to Kpop
since there's slightly less of an attempt to brand idols as "normal people"
what with all of the hyperbole pertaining to their talents
in that sense, the kpop idol scene is a better place for a non-asian to debut than the jpop idol scene
Greywing: the language barrier would be my worry
because variety is where you cut your teeth
and the interviews
and if you don't speak the language
it's harder for you to get attention
Arbitrary Greay: yeah
Greywing: unless you have some kind of X-factor
Arbitrary Greay: aka already successful in the place that speaks your home language
but despite how it is problematic for asian americans to claim kpop for their own uses
there is grounds for kpop to have some responsibility
at the point at which they themselves clamor for a spot on the global stage
set themselves up as equals to international acts
Greywing: sure
they have shamelessly plumbed international waters for talent
Arbitrary Greay: then they begin to play a role in asian representation on the whole in global media
Greywing: which is actually why I think the "K-pop is only for ASIANS" argument loses additional ground
Arbitrary Greay: not necessarily
as in
Greywing: because I think K-pop, or the management companies, will take whatever path to break into an international market
Arbitrary Greay: they do represent a chance to prove that asians can be global stars
Greywing: do they?
Arbitrary Greay: like interracial couples
Greywing: the best path
has proven to be a fluke
Arbitrary Greay: vs same race couples
in media
Greywing: Gangnam Style, the huge hit
was less intentional promotion
and more happy coincidence
Arbitrary Greay: which one is better for more ethnic equality in media
Greywing: (and his follow up song was terrible)
AND
the spirit of the song
Arbitrary Greay: do same race couples promote segregation, or do interracial couples promote mighty whitey?
Greywing: was also lost in translation
or rather
lack of translation
what you got was a goofy Asian man
doing a goofy dance
Arbitrary Greay: that article was invoking mighty whitey as a reason why kpop shouldn't include a white girl
now, "kpop is for asians" is a problematic thing
in the homogenizing of "asian"
but as for the inclusion of a white girl I can see her point
Greywing: but why
that is
in the context of Korea as well
the homogeneity of Korea
they may look to the West to glorify traits
but a French woman is also an "exotic" thing
Arbitrary Greay: there, it becomes a question of when does appropriation stop being appropriation because the appropriated thing has become truly global culture?
I've felt some impulses to scoff at "appropriation of black culture!" rants before
because on some level hip hop culture has become global culture
so is it really appropriation anymore? [And, shouldn't it be considered a good thing that black culture is seen as the cool thing, rather than something inferior to be reviled and rejected in favor of white culture?]
and analogy in gender again
Greywing: I'm not even on appropriation
Arbitrary Greay: if females are praising female traits
Greywing: I'm on fetishization
that is
we are on the outside looking in
but
Arbitrary Greay: does it become sexist just because a man is praising female traits?
Greywing: what are the internal discussions?
what are the Korean reactions?
are they "DON'T LET A WHITE PERSON IN!!!"
or are they "OOOOOH, French woman!"
Arbitrary Greay: and which reaction would be worse?
Greywing: I'm not talking about better or worse
but like I said
the anger of the article
is coming from an "outside" place
it's coming, that is
Arbitrary Greay: which on the level of expression of personal opinion, might have some leeway of "fine"
Greywing: from a marginalized place
but
in Korea
what is "marginalized"?
Arbitrary Greay: but on the level of "you should agree with me," becomes problematic
Greywing: in K-pop, what is the problematic roadway?
Arbitrary Greay: see, this goes right back to my feelings on feminist interpretations of things like anime [ 1, 2, 3]
the outside perspective might find some shows progressive and refreshing
but if in the homeland it's [misogynistic] fap fodder
Greywing: yes
because you don't have that layer of "normalized" that is the norms in the home culture
I think a lot about international fans of canon femmeslash
the Singaporeans, the Taiwanese, the where-have-you in marginalized spaces that watch Lost Girl and Orphan Black and see LESBIANS and are SO EXCITED
and yet these women look nothing like them and live in circumstances unlike theirs
and it's that "THIS THING IS LIKE ME"
and I see that here
"THESE ASIANS LOOK LIKE ME!"
Arbitrary Greay: hmm
Greywing: and yet . . . they aren't
Arbitrary Greay: can we extend this analogy
Greywing: it's escapist, as you've used
Arbitrary Greay: a white girl invading escapist asian space in music
the analogy would be a straight man invading gay space?
Greywing: not even that
Asian American invading over-the-seas cuilture
weeaboos
koreaboos
no?
Arbitrary Greay: implied audience here
a white girl invading escapist asian space in music for asian americans
or non national asian asian ethinicities
vs. a straight man invading a lesbian space for international lesbians in a western show??
does that comparison work?
Greywing: I'm not sure I'd draw comparisons
because that wasn't what I was drawing
that last road especially is problematic
I mean
some of the best femmeslash fanfics of my childhood were written by straight presumably white men
[sidebar: relevant real-life instance and its implications]
Arbitrary Greay: and some of the best lesbian couples in media were also written by straight men
[I was thinking of UK Skins' Naomi/Emily here]
Greywing: in fact, most of them
Arbitrary Greay: but that's slightly different
Greywing: Willow and Tara
[Taking the popular subtext and canon lesbian couples from After Ellen, out of the seven most used writers on Xena, the first six names are male, 3/5 for Buffy, 5/6 for Once Upon a Time, and 2/2 for Orphan Black. This doesn't take into account who the showrunners and major producers are, though. For example, Emily Andras for Lost Girl hasn't actually penned that many episodes herself. Which is a good thing, probably, considering the Smash disaster, but IMDB doesn't have a "showrunner" spot in the cast and crew list.)
Arbitrary Greay: that's more like white males writing asian girl idol pop
Greywing: not PLL [Pretty Little Liars]
hrm, not Grey's [Grey's Anatomy]
Arbitrary Greay: which is sending up no flags
and is really common
Greywing: what I was getting at
is sympathetic/empathetic identification
where the audience clings to one common factor
and yet almost all other factors are drowned out
so that it's hard not to feel violated when that one thing is compromised
Arbitrary Greay: but with what you said before about how the reception might be different in korea
with my anime example before
it was where something was "good" from the outside, but promotes "bad" on the homegrounds
here
white girl in a kpop group
might be "good" on the homeground (combat korean xenophobia)
might be "bad" on the outside (compromise global asian representation)
the article focusses on the latter, obviously
while frank's comment looked at the former
Greywing: I don't think either view can be totally isolated, as by this point K-pop is pretty much a ho for money wherever it can find it, but I see defensiveness on both sides that is closing dialogue as well as field of perception
Arbitrary Greay: how to make those views interact, though
they're operating in different frameworks
Greywing: it's hard when you really have only one side XD
Arbitrary Greay: with opposing solutions
Greywing: language barrier
that "thing that looks like its ours but actually isn't ours because it's in a different culture" barrier rears its head
like if a straight man told me how I should act like a lesbian, I'd be pretty upset
Arbitrary Greay: but again, white males write asian girl idol pop all of the time
putting words in their mouths, you could say
male producers of girlgroups
Greywing: which get translated into worse derck
Arbitrary Greay: that have creative control
Greywing: dreck*
but that's just it, isn't it?
where do the Asian American kids get off telling the k-pop market when they've bought into all the marketing produced by the white structure behind the scnes?
if K-pop doesn't want to be homegrown
then shouldn't it amalgamate the way it wants to?
they have literally
Arbitrary Greay: on the other hand
if Kpop doesn't want to be homegrown
Greywing: they have thrown just about everything at the wall
Arbitrary Greay: don't they also have to listen to the demands of the non-homegrown customers?
Greywing: to see what will and will not stick
no
because that demand?
is also a niche
and they want to reach farther
Arbitrary Greay: true
Greywing: and they want to see what works
Arbitrary Greay: demands on non-homegrown customers is more than asian ethnicities
Greywing: if the paying market prefers fetishized Asian women
it will revert to that
but they won't know if the white woman in a group may or may not work
until they try
honestly
it all comes down to $$$
I've never seen otherwise with the K-pop market
Arbitrary Greay: defaulting to "let's see how the financials roll" isn't really an answer to the discussion at hand, though
just another framework
Greywing: but the thing is
Arbitrary Greay: because the financials say something about the social structures underneath
Greywing: if the institution isn't concerned with the social politics
and more concerned with the bottom financial line
it invalidates a lot of concerns
Continued in part 2 above!