Yellow Fever/Yellow Immunity
You probably don't know who Yani Tseng is. But that's ok, because I don't even remember why I know who Yani Tseng is. She does, however, have a few things in common with SNSD: she's an '89er who's claimed a heaping chunk of #1s and just happens to be Asian. She's also the non-face face of the LGPA . . . at least in America
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Take BoA, for instance. She fully assimilated into Jpop culture. Most of her Japan fans had no idea she was Korean, and as a result, no, BoA didn't really pave the way for Kpop, other than giving SM connections in the business with which they could bargain for other groups' appearances. But that's behind-the-doors stuff, not culture changing stuff. No, I'd say DBSK and the internet are what truly paved the way for Kpop, because DBSK retained a Kpop flavor to their songs, continued to promoted remakes and promote in Korea period, reinforcing their status as a Korean group that happened to be fluent in Japanese. This would also attribute their appeal points like the strong dancing and singing talent as part of the Kpop brand, which is why even though Kara are essentially Jpop in execution, their image is still that of "Kpop women are stronger!" so when they do ero-kawaii things just like AKB48 they don't take flak for it.
In classical, the "Asian aspect" was how Asians would relentlessly practice until they were able to play the composition perfectly.(model minority stereotype) Like with what penforkspunspider was talking about with the 'fetishizing bullshit,' because two Asian shows that get shown on American TV with subtitles are Ninja Warrior and Incredible Banzuke: shows about Asians doing ridiculously difficult things. For pop, perhaps it would, again, be that visual dancing aspect. They would need to create a space where lip-synching was okay for the sake of intense choreography, perhaps a weekly SDB type thing. Too bad none of the groups are turning in stellar performances up to par to play into that image anymore, and it's hurting their credibility. If SNSD had done ITNW remix on Letterman instead,(but in less young-girl-fetish-y costuming) there might still be some perverted snark about the high kick, but I can tell you there would be less comments about them looking like strippers and perhaps there would even be some rethinking about the lip-syncing issue just from the sheer energy of the dance. Dammit, why couldn't they have gotten BoA that Letterman slot? ;_;
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Asian cinema and dramas have taken this route, and it's the uniquely Asian pieces that get noticed Someone once pointed out that the real long-lasting Hallyu Wave in Japan is K-dramas, and that the music groups are just a passing fad. Most people in Japan but for certain demographics neither know nor care about Kpop groups, but most all of them know about Winter Sonata and its actors. And famous Asian directors doing films in English usually don't get the same kind of acclaim as their native language counterparts, Ang Lee excepted. Why does music have to follow a different strategy?
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It says something about how Classica is apparently the only genre of music that fits the model minority stereotype, but why?
It's "uncool." XD And nerdy. And geeky. There's something about saying "I like classical music" that suddenly--however silly--brings up some pretentious connotations. Not that it should since classical continues to be everywhere and influence so much.
It's also a very rooted (elevated) genre of music. We're not talking folk songs, generally, but we are talking tradition. There's something about its weight of history that can make classical "uncool" in that way. It's also interesting that when we say "Classical" we mostly mean the Western canon--and that when we think of Asian prodigies, they play Western classical music.
two Asian shows that get shown on American TV with subtitles are Ninja Warrior and Incredible Banzuke: shows about Asians doing ridiculously difficult things.
And the absurdity. There's a lot of "Oh, Japan~" sentiment there, the same way that "Matthew's Best Hit TV" was in Lost in Translation for that "WTF?" factor.
For pop, perhaps it would, again, be that visual dancing aspect.
Does the visual have as much place in the American market? That is, I'm not sure it really exists now, but if you did introduce, would it catch people's attention? Like I have no sense anymore if people watch live performances (like on TV shows) and what they're looking for when they do.
but I can tell you there would be less comments about them looking like strippers and perhaps there would even be some rethinking about the lip-syncing issue just from the sheer energy of the dance.
Is that the type of talk that went down? XD
After all, the goal is not for everyone to speak without accent,(and how would they determine what the "default" accent is anyways) but for people to not bat an eyelash if someone walks up and speaks with any accent. The only way for that to happen is continued exposure.
Slightly off topic, but as a child of immigrants, I can definitely feel some second hand embarrassment when someone has such a thick Asian accent that they can't be understood. (I also felt some second hand embarrassment for Letterman's attempt at thank you in Korean.) I have played translator quite a few times in an Engrish-English context.
Re: cinema. There are, of course, big name Asian stars that are recognizable to an American audience. Zhang Ziyi of the abs, for instance. But I wonder if the roles these Asians/Asian Americans/British Asians/etc. are cast are, well, those "Asian" roles. XD I was watching Smash and was struck that Karen's boyfriend wasn't white (but British accented!) and went, Huh. And then, Oooooh, accent! And finally, Yay!
I also wonder too how much of what we're talking about any ethnic genre of music "being" inherently itself was "pushed" into the American market. It's hard to trace exactly how something works into the mainstream of pop culture. I'm a hop, skip, and a jump away from the fields of Latin influence while rap and whatnot were homegrown out of imported roots. Maybe this is a way to frame the strategies: Import vs. Export. Is this the market K-pop is looking for?
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But there aren't Asian equivalents of Cobra Starship or Weezer. It's not just about the geekiness alone. In my "Thinking in Webs not Chains" post, I said BoA is ideal as a classical musician in that classical is "where it's more about bringing out the composer's intent and the piece's potential rather than the performer's personal interpretation," and the complaint against BoA in the West was that she didn't have a distinct enough personality of her own. Hip hop especially seems to be about making something your own. I went to a classical concert this past weekend featuring a pianist born in Venezuela, and was kind of dissatisfied with her interpretation of Beethoven. However, her claim to fame is improvisation, having put out several acclaimed albums of them. After the concerto, she invited the audience to give her a melody to improvise to, and then did so with the main melody of the concerto's last movement. She pointed out that in Classical music's heyday, musicians did this sort of improv all the time, writing their own cadenzas and solos within pieces and such, just like in today's Jazz and rap battles, or DJing. It's only today that the best cadenzas are given such prestige that soloists dare not play other versions.
But LOLJAPAN/LOLKOREA sentiment is different from Difficulty Level: Easy>Medium>Hard>Expert>Asian sentiment. Both are dismissive, as most stereotype-based sentiments are, but the former is negative and permanently dismissive,("We'll never be that weird, thank goodness") while the latter is more positively slanted and welcoming.("We'll never be that awesome, I want to see more!")Of course, there are the fetishists of the former, but they also tend to be escapists from mainstream culture.
That's why Apop could then make the visual into "theirs." That's the something new they would bring to the table, and the change they would introduce to pop culture that could not be credited to another native artist.
It's almost as if calling them strippers was the lesser of two insults next to the usual "shitty manufactured pop" insult. The former would at least imply that they were hot.
Accents: I wasn't sure if I wanted to link this or not before, but it does apply somewhat. On the one hand, the majority shouldn't assume someone is inferior for their accent, but on the other hand, the minority shouldn't assume that accent is essential to culture either. I think about the jokes at my school that Chinese is a prerequisite to Calculus 3.
Lucy Liu is now on Southland, I wouldn't say it's an "Asian role." The Korean dude from Lost is on Hawaii Five-O. The setting in Hawaii obviously means more Asian-"skinned" characters, but without the Asian connotations.
Besides, there's something to be said about the things the "Asian role" can do. I'm actually frustrated that the conflicts involving the Asian characters in Glee are so generic and aren't really exploring what it means to be Asian growing up in a small town.
As for other stars, don't forget George Takei and John Cho. Ken Jeong gets pigeon-holed in Asian AND midget stereotypes, unbelievably.
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Some say that Kpop in Japan is a matter of import. Then again, the anime convention performances and SMTown concerts were the response to preexisting demand, so it seems that Kpop is looking for more than niche demand, as I feel like the asiaphile population would be the same size as other smaller genres of music.
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But there aren't Asian equivalents of Cobra Starship or Weezer.
I'm not sure how you're presenting this? Do you mean in our Western body of music there isn't an Asian equivalent household name geek band? Because in that case, there aren't that many household name geek bands name to begin with, I'd say. (Let's not even try to get into Hipster territory, please, because I still don't understand the hipster movement.) Now, if you're saying that they don't exist at all, I have no idea. But I'd say a lack of recognition is true for so many bands--the Internet is giving life to indie bands, but it's still a game that involves finding out about them through whatever channels you surf. Getting that mainstream hit, on the other hand, takes a confluence of forces that we're partly trying to figure out here.
Hip hop especially seems to be about making something your own.
I would agree with this since so much of it is built on sampling. I always get hit with a mix of nostalgia and/or indignation when I hear new songs sampling songs that I loved growing up. It's also about the sort of branding and networking you manage to do. I know Estelle through her hit "American Boy," but the other day I looked her up on YT and discovered she'd done songs featuring tons of mainstream artist names. I think about Pitbull, who randomly appeared on my radio waves, and suddenly was in every single song, whether or not they were his own. SM seems to be trying to get access to this Western hip hop club by taking on producers like Ted Riley, but to what extent this'll have any success is anyone's guess. ("The Boys" is really a boring song. I was kind of struck with how sort of monotone it was when I watched the Letterman performance.) I mean, while you could have BoA featuring, I don't, Ne-yo or who-have-you, it's harder to get something like SNSD featuring Snoop Dogg.
Musical performances of the past also involved so much more audience involvement. Which is also true of theater. That thought always makes me a bit sad, because though I don't mind being respectful toward performances and performers, there's just something to be said about crowd involvement and energy that you don't get at a classical performance.
So is our task, then, to get at the heart of what exactly is being dismissed? Is it the feeling of cultural threat/invasion? There is something about the extremism of what is being dismissed . . .
I would venture to say that even Asians have this internalized whiplash reaction to the feats of Asians prodigies. There is something about always being compared/always having a standard set that the average person, really, a) can't meet due to limits of resources or talent or b) doesn't have the drive to meet or c) some mix of the two. Shit Asian Moms Say is played for laughs, but it points to a culture of comparison that can be constantly pushed on children: Why can't you be like that person's kid?
And I wonder if some degree of dismissal comes out of this . . . resentment? Which is not to forget, too, that American culture, especially Hollywood culture, is really weird and isolationist and assimilationist about outside cultural forces. Rather than import something wholesale, it is more likely to do a "remake." Awesome Asian movie? Let's remake it! There is something about casting faces or cultural aspects that are more familiar to an American audience that seems to present this idea that the American audience really only responds to these trappings, whether or not that's true. We made our own version of The Office, of Skins. I've heard talks of a Hollywood version of "Old Boy." Hell, they made a Hollywood version of "My Sassy Girl." D: It goes on and on.
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Even if such visuals may also be couched in, say, roots of . . . Michael Jackson? Or other hip hoppers with moves? I think there is a rift here between the TV stage and the concert stage, because certainly a hip hop artist knows how to put on a show. Beyonce will Diva it up. It's like we've said: the American TV music scene isn't really prepared for a girl group act like SNSD. Maybe? I haven't seen any live performances by Pussycat Dolls to really know what we're talking about in terms of performance here. I'm not one to tune into performances on my TV.
Are strippers always hot? XD
I think about the jokes at my school that Chinese is a prerequisite to Calculus 3.
Where did you go to school?
On the one hand, the majority shouldn't assume someone is inferior for their accent
Completely agree. I've never felt more stupid than when I've tried to communicate in a second language. It's the looks of "?????" you get.
I'm actually frustrated that the conflicts involving the Asian characters in Glee are so generic and aren't really exploring what it means to be Asian growing up in a small town.
Are any of the plotlines in Glee either a) not generic or b) not completely batshit nonsensical? XD
Also of note: Notice you really need to not have an accent if you're going to be able to play these roles. And if you're going to have an accent, it better be a sexy British one.
I think this then would go back to more preliminary ASian influxes like manga and anime. Once there was an inkling of demand, we got a glut of the stuff, and, on top of that, a glut of confusion. You'll hear as much dismissiveness re: anime and manga as you'll see it being bought off the shelves. (I also think that a younger American target audience picked up certain series vs. what that target audience is in Japan.) But that makes me think, too, that if people are talking about it either positively or negatively, it may not matter: what matters is that people are talking about it. Those who like it will like it, those who who will hate, will hate. And maybe that's the "in" that K-pop/A-pop is looking for.
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Funny how all of your examples are artists getting known by featuring on other artists' tracks, but SM seems to be doing it backwards, getting other artists to feature on their tracks. How did Ke$ha land that spot on "Right Round" anyways?
crowd involvement and energy that you don't get at a classical performance
Have to disagree here. When I experienced a Perfect Performance playing in an orchestra, the energy was mostly derived from the synergy amongst the players, but there would also be this heady energy in the charged moment after a big finish, the sound of the last note wafting its way up through the music hall, anticipating that wall of applause...
But I do have to admit a lot of the tension is gone because the audience tends to give a freaking standing ovation to everything these days.
By dismissive, I mean generalisations. The task is then to ensure that those generalisations are not damaging to their reputation. Generalising Japan as absurd is damaging because it traps them in a zone that will only be visited when the mood for absurdity arises. Generalising Asians as overachievers opens the door for positive expectations. Generalising Asians as overachievers dismisses the fact that not all of them are, but consider how much more international credibility and hype "elite talent" Kpop seems to have compared to "wtflolicon" Jpop.
Sure, there'll be internalized whiplash from Asians against being generalised as overachievers, but hey, those aren't going to be the ones trying to break into the market. The ones who are are the overachievers.
But how many of these remakes have been well-received? The majority of them flop or get the dreaded "the original was better" judgement, especially for Asian remakes. Remakes of British series are easier because the culture gaps aren't as large. The reason why Asian remakes fail is often because the appeal is rooted in an aspect of Asian culture that doesn't translate well. For example, "My Sassy Girl's" main appeal was in how the normal romantic gender roles were reversed. But that's nothing new in American cinema, and it might as well have been perfected in 1938's "Bringing Up Baby." Most of the failures in the American version of "My Sassy Girl" were in the critical elements in the original that they transplanted, but don't make a lick of sense in the context of the remake.
The only really good Asian remake I can think of at the moment is "The Magnificent Seven."
But Michael Jackson's visuals were couched in the roots of musicals, Fred Astaire and West Side Story. Beyonce, too, couched in the roots of Bob Fosse. Michael Jackson still managed to change pop culture in terms of the MV. kpop could change pop culture in terms of the American TV music show. Because that's the thing: I've never seen a performance by PCD because there aren't proper showcase shows anymore, just guest artist spots on shows where people would rather be watching "the main event" instead.
The ones who make bank are. :P
Engineering school.
Glee: No, and no. DX Damn that show.
Jet Li and Jackie Chan have managed with accents. :3 Jet Li even had these Jean Claude Van Damme type movies going on.
But what about Blacks and Hispanics? Is it that Will Smith and Denzel Washington's accents are "cleaned up" enough for them to have become the only Black leading men that can transcend their race for roles?
I disagree, because then technically anime/manga/Jpop have had more events in America for much longer than Kpop, but which one is generating more buzz capable of opening the mainstream market to them? Again it's the different in dismissal between LOLJAPAN and slicktalent!Kpop.
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Great asian composers for video games, anime OSTs, etc., have yet to be recognized as equals of the likes of John Williams.
I'd say this is generally true of videogames/show/etc. OSTs. If you tell someone that music came from a videogame, regardless of who composed it and their ethnicity and how Awesomesauce it is, it will probably be dismissed out of hand. You gotta make them listen to it first before telling them what the source is. Unfair stigmas--geek culture stigma.
Funny how all of your examples are artists getting known by featuring on other artists' tracks, but SM seems to be doing it backwards, getting other artists to feature on their tracks. How did Ke$ha land that spot on "Right Round" anyways?
Actually, this isn't the case all the time. That is, a small unknown artist may have a song that features a big name artist; or a big name artist can give a small name artist a boost up by featuring that small name artist on their song. Both help. Which one helps blow open the door I think may come down to PR machines.
There may be a very thin line between "overachiever" and "absurd." Or "overachiever" and "upstart." But it may not even go that far if visuals are being dismissed outright because someone's skin color isn't right. It's interesting since the b-boy hip hop scene has embraced the Asian flavor, especially since Asian b-boys have proven themselves on international scenes and stages at grassroots levels--in that sense they've infiltrated the b-boy scene on legitimate grounds, I guess, but perhaps that's because that's also niche and has very clear criteria of what is "good" and "exciting" and in which innovation is encouraged. The idol system and the American pop music scene may not be so easy for Asian acts to legitimize themselves simply because the mainstream is so . . . fickle. Whether or not they can find something to hook the mainstream is what remains to be seen.
The movie remakes are terrible, but the mainstream isn't really watching the originals either. Those who are dismissing the remakes are the ones who have bothered to go out and watch the originals in the first place--and then tortured themselves by watching the remakes. I once saw "My Sassy Girl" the remake on the shelf at Blockbuster, with no original in sight. *shudder* I have to say, though, that I am completely fascinated and impressed by how quickly Korean media has inundated the Netflix market.
kpop could change pop culture in terms of the American TV music show.
If the shows don't exist, how does one create those stages for a public that may or may not know if it'd be interested in watching that? (Random: I think I discovered the Wonder Girls tv show on cable tv? Like I was looking at the channel guide and in the Nick slot was "Wonder Girls." I was like, ". . ." Have you seen the movie? XD)
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I think most minorities are still pigeonholed in roles, especially in Hollywood. I mean, the whole "black guy dies first" thing is terrible but so often true. Funny story: I have a relative who things ever leading black man in a movie is Denzel Washington. XD And there's Samuel L!
which one is generating more buzz capable of opening the mainstream market to them?
The thing is, anime/manga must have had a shit ton of demand and brought in a lot of money for that amount of influx to happen. It seemed like overnight manga suddenly had its own sections in bookstores--mainstream bookstores. It was just that the audience tended to be skewed to a much younger reading market--a reading market that is now coming to age into adulthood, myself included to gauge. (And the manga sections far surpassed the amounts of American comic books I'd see on shelves. Which is interesting.) The importation of manga was slowed, certainly, with series dropped left and right as the demand turned out be way less than it had been anticipated to be, but, man! I don't read much manga anymore, but it'll be around to stay for a while. What's interesting, too, is that it's an artform that English-language writer/artists have tried to adopt to . . . not great success. So it's like the reverse prejudice/racism going on. XD
That period of great manga demand also helped open the door wider for Asianophile love and remember that J-fen has led to K-fen for many a fan. Interests in J-dramas lead to interests in K-dramas. Interests in J-pop leads to interest in K-pop. This was the more likely direction of the trend a few years ago, but it has reversed as the Hallyu Wave has gained notoriety so that they're kind feeding in each other in a loop. This is why I see things on a continuum.
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