Yellow Fever/Yellow Immunity
You probably don't know who Yani Tseng is. But that's ok, because I don't even remember why I know who Yani Tseng is. She does, however, have a few things in common with SNSD: she's an '89er who's claimed a heaping chunk of #1s and just happens to be Asian. She's also the non-face face of the LGPA . . . at least in America
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it feels flat and forced and like it wouldn't hold up to much. i think retaining that too cool for this shit vibe is so important to that,
Too cool for what shit and does SNSD really do this even in Korea? That is to say, there is something also carefully built on artifice about them even in their Korean appearances. I remember when I read that Taeyeon had professed she didn't want to go solo and my eyebrows went up like "ORLY?" And certainly it's very hard to come out right off the bat and be "too cool for this shit" because they obviously weren't when they debuted, which is kind of what debuting in Japan was like and what it would be like in America, i.e. hitting a reset button.
ultimate kpop hook is personalities, it's what the stars themselves have been bred for, and yet they're left struggling to speak properly, and the majority of them are barely speaking at all.
This made me pause and go, "Is it?" In the idol world, perhaps, but it's also true that while I do not "religiously" follow other Kpop idol groups, I am able to enjoy their music, sometimes more so than I've liked an SNSD song. And this is what you want to be able to do in America: have a catchy song play on the radio and catch on like wildfire, no matter how stupid the song is. As International fans, it's hard to get a sense of what is going on in Korea at a basic level. What do they hear on their radios? Are their popular listening stations like ours, wherein I hear the same 10 songs played for about three months before 10 new songs are phased in and I hear those for months? Their formula for success musically may not be all that different from a formula for success in America. The hardest part is getting a toe through that door, because it's really hard to get your song promoted to that level and suddenly have your song everywhere. I mean, even the oddity of hearing "Pumped Up Kicks" by Foster the People on a channel that was typically hip-hop here in my city was a surprise to me, like, "Whoa, this isn't part of the usual formula."
The Wonder Girls' strategy probably isn't far off the mark. Here in America, one path is about performing until you catch on as that next trend/fad/sound/what-have-you. I just don't see SNSD taking that route and so I'm curious to see if SM has some other strategy up their sleeve to sneak into the market. The fact that they've landed a TV appearance is pretty amazing and I'm curious as to how they finagled that.
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oh no, but that's what i'm getting at. it's not necessary in korea, but i think it's necessary for an asian group in the west. it doesn't even matter what shit, lmao, we're talking a bit je ne sais quoi here, although if i were to try i'd say too cool for the american market, too cool for america, too cool for americans. like, for me as a brit growing up in the 90s, it felt like so much american tv and music could become popular pretty easily in england because to us, the vibe of americans and of american tv shows and productions was so much cooler than british stuff (the current zeitgeist about british tv is so interesting to me for that). i think kpop groups need to give off the feeling that they're on another level, not even necessarily higher but different, and that that's within a bubble that isn't one of trying to assimilate and win within american rules. that's the kinda thing that can force the rules to change a bit. but i've got nothing much concrete to back this up.
oh yeah, i enjoy lots of kpop music much more than snsd's. but personalities are why most of us stick around, is it not? if the kpop industry didn't have the kind of personality showcases that they do, what would the fandom be like then? and doesn't the music become irrelevant to devoted fans - they'll want the merchandise, they'll want to go to a concert 'just to see them'. i started liking a lot more of snsd's music after i got into them while it was kindof a struggle at first, rofl. i agree about needing a catchy song in america, but isn't that partially because they don't have that kind of variety showcase?
personally i think the WGs' strategy is horrendous, even if it can get them some measure of success... smh.
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Hrm. So it's about being badass and cooler than American media/pop culture icons that will make the American market take notice? Huh. I wonder if that's possible for Asians in media to do that.
That's a good question about fandom and what it would look like if there was only music. But there's plenty of banddom fandoms so there's definitely a form and a culture for it. Ultimately, though, I think it has to be the music that sticks with you. I had a powerful craving for Dave Matthews Band last night because I'd talked about their music with someone recently and the songs were so good in my ears again.
What don't you like about the WG strategy? I'm not up on what strategies they've employed and so would like a crash course.
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i think it's about not coming across as though america is that Be All End All, even though that's basically the reality behind it. did you catch that vid a few weeks back, the korean street-dancing to party rock anthem and 2pm's hands up? (snsd were playing behind, lol). i saw it pop up on tumblr with the caption being something along the lines of 'easy>intermediate>difficult>extremely difficult>asian'. it veers close to fetishising bullshit; some people on twitter were talking about how it's because of stuff like parental pressures that asians have to work harder and cultural mindset (like, "you worked hard" being a staple phrase). but it demonstrates the kind of thing that works - if it looks like asians in their own domain. not trying to play up to american standards, because that's when racist attitudes start to rear their heads, i find.
ugh, sometimes i get that but i really i wish i got it more. i've been veering off of kpop this past year, but finding it harder than i'd have thought to get at english music - partly because mainstream kpop is so small and accessible, but also because i'm a total visual creature. if i can't picture groups, members, videos, it doesn't stick half so well. also because i suck at hearing lyrics, so so much ~profound~ indie stuff and whatnot goes totally over my head. i'm at a loss at fic memes because people typically use song lyrics for prompts and all i've got is "loly po~ly loly loly poly". the amount of english songs i came to know because they were the backing to fan MVs... which actually presents an interesting counterpoint where songs like hoot i found so much better before picturisation.
whups, i keep editing, sorry if you get this like a million times (unless like me you only get notifs for like half your comments anymore...)
i just think that JYP threw the WGs in the deep end, i think he had an overblown sense of what he could do for them. i mean, the WGs were on a roll in their niche in korea and i honestly have no idea how that would've played out, how long they could've kept going doing that gimmick (sunye said that snsd have variety whereas the WGs could basically only do their one thing, something to that effect) - but it's bizarre because yeeun and arguably sunye are better singers than taeyeon, who is ofc snsd's star vocalist, but snsd are excellent at blending to form an impressive whole - like, i totally think snsd's appeal is that they are both average and extraordinary. there's no real reason the WGs have to stick to their gimmick. they have an established fanbase (although idk what it's like now, in korea), why can't they go a little experimental? - but they went to the US, to carry on singing fucking nobody (even sunmi complained!). they interacted with the jobros, who seem genuinely nice to them and wanting to help support them, but they're in such a tight niche that they're never going to be successful - because they can't match up to the mileys and selenas. because of their level of english, because they've been wandering around in their nobody costumes for literally years, and in america too, for a while, and they appeared as if they were hanging onto a stale fad, tbh. 2DT was released in the US but it didn't make a splash. and then - stagnation. i just feel like they've worked too hard for the little they have to show for it, and that JYP has stopped caring. like he's stopped putting the effort in korea, too. ngl, i loved be my baby (until performances started...) - why didn't they perform me, in? why not try to take charge in the industry again? why not do something fresh?
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But what happens when the "line" between an "American" standard and an "Asian"/"native" one is blurred. To use your dancing example--and I hadn't seen that, not a tumblr user myself except for visiting Uyen's Hyo's gif-tastic emporium on tumblr--the "Asian" standard is in fact to go hard and to go difficult. B-boying has this sort of American pride stamped onto it since many feel it originated in America and since then each country has put its stamp on it. France is known for style and grace, for example. South Korea is known for ridiculously difficult technical skills. So if you watch Asians b-boying, there is an "Asian" flair to it.
If you mean, rather, that any export group should not seem like it's pandering to the American dollar even though ultimately it is, how do you export a product that isn't exporting itself? That is, it wasn't like SNSD was suddenly discovered by a force in America that wanted to suddenly push this trend onto the public, but that SM and JYP are pushing their product into the American market. However, if you play the waiting game, you risk never having an interest in your product really take off. Which goes back to this niche question since it's not like SM isn't already taking American dollars--plenty of fans are buying straight from Korea at exorbitant prices. Like JKO asked, are these efforts really going to yield any increase in interest/commercial prospects in the US?
And, if they don't, is it worth it to spend the time pandering to the fans that do, in fact, exist in the United States, to put on these spot concerts here and there? Is that the better route, to kind of take what you can get and leave it at that?
wow, I know very little about what is going on the K-pop industry, I realize. XD
Now to go completely off topic: I found your account of your music listening experience really interesting since it's practically the exact opposite of mine. Rather than needing visuals to enjoy my music, the music itself often feeds the visuals into my head, whether it's through the lyrics or some melodic quality that puts me in just the right mood. Some music, of course, is associated with visuals, especially any song I learned because it was used as soundtrack music for a movie or a show, but otherwise I get most of my music knowledge through the radio and don't go seeking out MVs. XD
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tbh i doubt much profit can be made in terms of kpop-virgin americans, but i don't blame them for trying?? they're probably thinking in terms of boa/tohoshinki needing to pave the way for kpop in japan, and that they can give it a go. because LSM or whoever head decisionmaker is are successful because they attempt to innovate and try shit out, look at exo. (i'm really curious as to what koreans think about exo? as opposed to this bizarre attitude online where so many seem to want them to fail? wtf is with all the hate thrown at kai? how on earth people can hate someone for being promoted by their company... smh, fandom)
ah, but it's not quite so clear-cut. the music feeding visuals to me must happen, because to take the soshi examples that most stick out to me, hoot and echo, which i find suffered for their picturisations, as songs, for me personally - because they contradicted what the songs were doing for me visually? but largely i fail at lyrics because often i just don't hear them! my mind wanders without a lyrical hook that isn't obvious, because then i'm struggling to make out the words. pop is easier, and if i first hear the song when i first see the MV, the visuals can carry me through and provide checkpoints. like, be my baby's mv has perfect flow, and visual checkpoints where i know what's coming, a particular expression (sunye's headbob, the monochrome effect, yoobin's dance move), which i note and see. or a recent english example is cher lloyd's want u back - that kid does Expressions, and because i'm so visual Expressions are my kryptonite. if i hear a song often on the radio i probably won't know or remember the singer unless it's obvious like rihanna or something, and it'll tend to stick less. or it'll have bad stick. like, that katy perry song where she goes "in another life~" - no idea what the song's called, belatedly found out it was KP, only recall like the next 2 lines and i hate the way she says life and every time i wait for it and every time i cringe. aaaaaaand that was probably way more than you ever cared about. ^___^v
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This is actually really funny because recently I've been having conversations about the dance abilities of Asians in contexts completely unrelated to K-pop. These conversations go one of two ways: You either have Asians who are worse than the "white people can't dance" stereotype or you have the Asian who can dance at a ridiculous difficulty level stereotype. There seems to be very little in between.
This talk about WG actually has made me wonder about K-pop groups and how we view some as fortunate and some as unfortunate because of corporate decisions that lead them on one path or another. Which really made me wonder, you know, about appreciating having a job, the opportunity to perform, how, really, it seems it all came down to luck and timing and opportunity in terms of what group any idol artist ended up in. I mean, WG could have been made up of a completely different set of girls--and, as we know, there have been subtractions and additions--so it's interesting to think about these idols as . . . well, playing a crapshoot game because they have so little autonomy as a consequence of using the idol machine to realize their dreams. You talk about WG that should have something to do and opportunities to grow--but why. Why should they have any more opportunities than the group that fails or is overlooked because, say, a group like SNSD is dominating currently or the public is whimsical?
It's an interesting fan-entitlement issue. Like I think about independent artists--the other day I was listening to Fiona Apple again ♥--and in YT comments you'll often see people asking her to release another album. And such an appeal is a direct one to Fiona Apple: please write and record new music for us. But when we talk about an idol group in the same terms of wanting new material, we almost never appeal to, for example, SNSD themselves but to SM. And that appeal takes such a different shape about what "new material" means. It's definitely interesting.
I have no idea what this "exo" thing you speak of is. The only "exo" I know is Exosquad, which, omg, I have not thought about in probably over a decade.
but largely i fail at lyrics because often i just don't hear them!
This is mostly my deal with foreign music, but what happens to me is that as a consequence of not understanding lyrics, they tend to become part of the melodic machine: how do the elements fit together aurally and am I grooving to it? If no, I'm probably not going to listen to it.
Funny thing is, if I go to look for a song on YouTube, I almost never click the MV. I don't care. I just want to listen to it so I'll pick the "lyrics" videos over actual MVs, usually because MVs can sometimes introduce other elements outside of the song that I don't want to listen to, like acting or long ass intros.
But since SNSD is packaged as a performance group, I have to agree that their visuals can be just as damning or hooking. "Gee" definitely had all the elements that were just right for captivating an unprepared soul.
I have finally admitted that I actually groove to quite a bit of Rihanna's songs. In fact, I'm listening to "Te amo" right now. And I cannot stand Katy Perry on principle.
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totally. most idols enter the trainee game at such a young age, you have to wonder how much they understand about their likely shelf lives, keeping in mind the industry's rate of change. the cut-off used to be 5, maaaaybe 6 years, right? a group like big bang is a little anomalous in that they're still very popular, but once they'd attained that success they went experimental and sporadic.
with the WGs, i pick them out because they've also had that crazy level of popularity - that's the goal, right, to basically be guaranteed success no matter what you put out? which dbsk, i guess big bang, now snsd has. the interesting part comes after that - the industry doesn't have anywhere further for you to go - so where do you go? the WGs, it seems, go to america, and it's like a popped balloon. it's a career, and they haven't shown any signs of wanting to quit the game. so they're treading water. they're signed into mutual contracts - they've earned JYP a lot of money, therefore i think he should use his considerable influence to give them - idk, something.
all i know about fiona apple is her coloured personal history. ._. and i think i might've seen an MV where she was incredibly thin. poor thing... rec some of her music?
lmfao. you really are not paying attention to kpop, huh. sme's new venture. chinese and korean pair-groups who release the same song on the same day in their respective countries. sme's released a squillion teasers on their YT channel, and the majority have starred kai, so he's getting a lot of hate, sort-of yoona-esque except nobody seems to think he's talenteless or 'plain' so idgi. they've released their songs but haven't performed on the music shows, and i think they're debuting with a full album.
haha, fair enough. like t-ara's lovey dovey mv is what, 20 minutes? i really can't be bothered, even though i've probably spent more than that looping performances. but then instead of the mv i can get my visuals from perfs.
rihanna gets overplayed, omg that time last year/year before when she had what's my name and only girl in the world both out and they were both being played everywhere ,jgskjgdkaj but she's also got great songwriters and personal charisma - man down is THE GREATEST, shit i love her so much for doing that. and i could pass on the mv but we found love is super.
hahaha, what principle is that?
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I was, er, "gifted" with a link to watch the WG Nickelodeon movie. I have to say I was horrified after five minutes of it--but I bet you it would be awesome to watch with a group of snarky friends. Which is not a glowing compliment. XD But, maybe if I were tween age, the WG movie would totally fly . . . I did see Spice World in the theaters back in the day!
they've earned JYP a lot of money, therefore i think he should use his considerable influence to give them - idk, something.
Chicken or egg problem. He made them a group--trained them, branded their image, wrote them songs, provided them with a PR machine--and opened the avenues for their popularity. So, who owes whom here?
The Fiona Apple MV with her looking really thin is "Criminal"--a most excellent song, though. She pretty much admitted to having an eating disorder--and many other problems. Hoo boy. But her songs come from a personal place because of that. I particularly have been enjoying "Shadowboxer", "Sleep to Dream", "Fast as You Can", "Never is a Promise", "Not About Love". These are not happy songs. XD But, man, if you are angry, it feels pretty good to sing along. I hadn't listened to Fiona Apple in quite some time and so listening to them recently, I was struck by her lyrics. Man.
chinese and korean pair-groups who release the same song on the same day in their respective countries.
Whuh? Why not . . . why not just have one group?
the majority have starred kai, so he's getting a lot of hate, sort-of yoona-esque except nobody seems to think he's talenteless or 'plain' so idgi.
Automatic Face backlash, I see.
omg that time last year/year before when she had what's my name and only girl in the world both out and they were both being played everywhere
Yes, I do! But to her credit, despite being super annoyed at that time, I can still listen to . . . well, actually I can still listen to "Only Girl in the World" and still enjoy it! The sentiment makes me feel good! Maybe it's the way she shouts the chorus with such conviction, like: BOY, YOU BETTER MAKE ME FEEL LIKE THE ONLY GIRL IN THE WORLD!!!! In fact, I'll listen to it right now. I really like "We Found Love," I have to say. It's the bittersweetness of the song: better to have loved and lost, despite the terrible circumstances that meant it was doomed? And I did like "Rude Boy"--but that's because I enjoy me a dirty song, it's true. /shameless
The sell-out principle. XD I don't know. While this should probably apply to most pop artists anyway, I get especially annoyed with Perry. Maybe because she wrote that awful "I Kissed a Girl" song. Or maybe because she couldn't get the revenue off her gospel albums in the same way that proclaiming she kissed girls and liked it would get her. Y'know.
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i get on ok with disney channel movies, and i think the only nick movie i've seen would be drake and josh's christmas one or something (♥) but even the trailer for the WGs' one was awful.
he opened the avenues for their popularity, and they were popular - and then he packed them off to america and left them to stagnate. it's not about owing, it's for both their benefits, obviously. i really get affected by the WGs stuff because of how much they were affected by it - enough for sunmi to be vocal about it and then to quit, and then for sunye to be working so hard while her father was dying, and after. they can't put any more in than they do, as JYP is damn well aware and has commented on.
fuuuuuck she has charisma, i almost feel like i don't want to look her in the eyes. she's extraordinary. omg not about love's mv, i don't think i took in a word of that, lmfao. i love the comment comparing her to lana del rey on one of the mvs; what do you think of her?
so they can make more money? ;\
yes, exactly, except that this started solely on the basis of teasers!!
aaaa, only girl in the world never did anything for me. even the sentiment, which theoretically i dig, it's like playing foils - automatically think of all the other girls in the world, hahaha. that's my psycho interpretation, anyway. >_> with we found love i'm totally riding the dystopia kick. :)))) i should really listen to that properly, but my lyric blackout's in action again; really don't remember anything other than the chorus line!
omg she did gospel??! but... she can't... really... sing.........
yno the first time i heard firework it was a live and she was all breathy and shit and i liked it?! and then i heard the studio version and a few rounds later it was - meh. i totally liked i kissed a girl when i first heard that one, too. the more ~controversial stuff on that album... ended up sounding so very gimmicky very quickly.
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Which points to an interesting point about SNSD's PR message, which is that they will always be SNSD and, in fact, prefer to be a group rather than individual solo artists. Mmm-hmmmmm. In some ways they are stifled by their huge number and varying levels and types of talents being bundled as a group package because they may have worked themselves into corners in which it wouldn't be possible for those who would like to release a solo single and/or album with full promotional activities while a part of the group to release one. BEG and several other groups have managed it but SNSD has twisted their image to the point that any such attempt now may go down badly with the fandom. . . . The Wank might be worth it.
drake and josh's christmas one or something
. . . What?
it's not about owing, it's for both their benefits, obviously.
What you see right now is a lose-lose situation for the parties involved, but it may not look that way from where they're standing. WG may feel like they've got the short end of the stick, but JYP is thinking bigger and further and beyond them. He needs a wedge and now he's committed WG into a kind of kamikaze spearhead attack to try to break open the market for future ventures. The question of any success--and the degree of that success--remains to be seen, but he's trying to get at a bigger picture, it seems. If WG must be sacrificed for what he thinks is a greater gain, I suppose the question is whether or not he has the "right" of it now. Of course, it could end up lose-lose in the end but that's a gamble he's taking to the all-in max.
I don't think I've had much exposure to Lana del Rey? Let's see. Nope, I don't think I've heard much of her music. Rec some if you have some favorites.
so they can make more money? ;\
I wonder how much extra it costs them to fund a second group that basically just has to record different audio over the same melody track. I wonder if all the promotional preparation is done in the same place or if each is done at a home base in the respective country. And I wonder how much a double group like that would just end up competing with itself; the Asian markets have enough crossover thanks to the Internet that a second group may be redundant or even counterproductive. Hrm.
Most of the time I don't remember much of a song beyond the chorus. Sometimes I realize a song isn't much more beyond its chorus. XD
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agreed. the acting thing's interesting, though. i'm most interested in seeing how soori do, really.
are you not up on your tween/teen channel history.
>:c i'm refusing to consider other viewpoints, work with me here buddy.
she's been the new big thing. i've given her album a go-round. her voice can go very sweet, but also distanced and pointed; i like it. off to the races is interesting. i haven't got any particular faves as yet, but her voice and lyrics intrigue!
i think they're still working it out, which is why after the MV release we're just getting more teasers. they've only made an appearance with the sm orchestra at gayo daejun, and that was just a few of them. they're very talented, though. ;3 the crossover thing is definitely something to consider. in taiwan, at least, i don't know if xiao zhu's kpop thing is particular to him or more widespread, but then sorry sorry was on top of some chart for like a year or something ridic like that... and i think kdramas are popular too. so maybe they're ready for it (or maybe they'll like the korean unit better!)
songs shouldn't require so much thinking. i was listening to some song, i can't remember what, and the melody was fun but i swear only about 5 words were intelligible in the whole thing - does that make sense!
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They'll be joining a lot of their peers; there are a ton of idols doing drama work right now.
My tween/teen years were quite some time ago. XD /creepy old man
>:c i'm refusing to consider other viewpoints, work with me here buddy.
Friend, you are in the wrong comm if that is your stance. XD
The only "new" thing I know about is Adele and I cannot listen to "Someone Like Youuuuuuuuuuuuu" anymore. >(
they're very talented, though. ;3
They're SM trainees.
xiao zhu's kpop thing
Who?
(or maybe they'll like the korean unit better!)
This is exactly what I'm wondering.
Actually, I like when songs will surprise me with unexpected or cleverly crafted lyrics. Since they came up on my shuffled playlist earlier, Emily Haines has a few songs like that (she performs and releases albums both as a solo artist and as part of Metric). "Police and the Private" has a part that goes "There's a place that ends here I know / When they close the gates I'll cry." And the way she sings it always makes me wonder what sentence construction she means: "There's a place that ends here. I know when they close the gates I'll cry"? or "There's a place that ends here, I know. When they close the gates I'll cry"?
And "Monster Hospital" goes "I fought the war / But the war won't stop for the love of God," but again the way she sings it is super clever. There's a later lyric that completes where that lyric is leading: "But the war won." So what you get from the way she sings it sounds like "I fought the war / But the war won't / STOP for the love of God." But that "won't" is so awesomely placed because it sounds so close to "won" and the "stop for the love of God" part sounds like a plea/entreaty/command.
And "Succexy" is fun because I love that sense of the love of words, the mashing of "success" and "sexy." There's poetical play in Haines that I like.
Metric was even getting radio play with "Help I'm Alive" ("Hard to be soft / Tough to be tender" --> so good) and "Gold Guns Girls", which I kind of love every time it pops up when I'm driving. It's a song to speed to.
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