Re: Warning, long rambling ahead delta_maiFebruary 10 2011, 19:48:13 UTC
I agree with most of what you said, except the portrayal of Susan as a queen in HHB. I think she isn't portrayed as foolish at all, rather as the epitome of a perfect woman. She is gentle, beautiful, caring, and yet sensible - her handling of Rabadash is both sensitive and clever. As this incarnation she is the only positively portrayed adult female (apart from Polly ofc) and certainly the only good sexualised one. Maybe with this Lewis is saying that the only way such a woman can exist is in a Heaven/Eden like environment - whereas on Earth instead of using her sexual, gentle talents for good, Susan becomes obsessed with materialism and vanity.
I think LB is a terrible book, especially for children. You're right - if children don't understand the whole Christian parallel (and let's face it, so few of them will be able to) then the whole thing is shocking and upsetting. I loathed it as a child, and not just because of the Susan angle, but for other reasons, namely the destruction of Narnia, the racism, and how he has Jill and Eustace AS CHILDREN KILLING MEN. What the actual fuck. But as the Calmorenes he seems to imply it's ok because they're less than human (but if you read them in the new order as I did, so HHB before LB, Calormenes have been portrayed positively and even these soldiers could have good lives and worth as people).
Now I've analysed it more, it does seem that Lewis was leaning towards using Susan as a cautionary tale not to lose faith and become obsessed with the superficial parts of life. But because she's female, and because her "superficial life" is obviously so feminine, this is still problematic from a feminist point of view. Plus, just because he's not using Susan to demonise female sexuality, that doesn't mean it's not there in the text with the two female villains.
Oh good. Ah, so there's a missing story about Susan eh? Perfect. I shall write it myself (which I already was but w/e this gives me an excuse other than "I'm a fangirl so I must fic". Which actually isn't my reason but w/e).
Me too! You actually caught me while I was checking emails before typing up my plan for my Lewis and Gender in Narnia essay (my student newspaper jumped on my project and I'll now be doing a featured essay). So this has really helped my thoughts :D
Re: Warning, long rambling ahead snackyFebruary 13 2011, 14:58:34 UTC
I think The Magician's Nephew is where we see the most adult women in all the books! Digory's mother, Helen (the cabbie's wife and first Queen of Narnia), Digory's Aunt Letty, and Jadis.
Jadis is the most developed in the book, and she's flat-out evil. Digory's mother and Queen Helen are good, but they each get about one line, and we really don't see them developed in any meaningful fashion. We know from the text implications that they're good, because one is the hero's mother, and the other is made Queen of Narnia by Aslan, but other than that, we don't know anything about them.
Digory's aunt gets a limited but favorable portrayal - she's a tough old thing who stands up to both Uncle Andrew and to Jadis, but she's unmarried, no surprise there.
Re: Warning, long rambling ahead delta_maiFebruary 13 2011, 15:02:53 UTC
Yep. It seems the only women worthy of some kind of equality with men are tomboyish and chaste. Once they are married they have to be subservient and feminine, but not too aware of their sexuality. Although I think Lewis had changed his ideas about women by the time he wrote the books (time was he was unlikely to have written female characters as protagonists or heroes), his old ideas do seep through.
Actually I just finished the Silver Chair and omg nice totally unecessary misogynistic point at the end there, Lewis!
All the way through "Experiment House" is shown to be the epitome of bad schooling, with bullies running riot and without teaching of the Bible. (In fact, Eustace's original bad character is somewhat ascribed to how he was taught in this school). And at the end OMG THE HEAD IS A WOMAN.
Re: Warning, long rambling ahead snackyFebruary 13 2011, 14:51:52 UTC
I agree with most of what you said, except the portrayal of Susan as a queen in HHB. I think she isn't portrayed as foolish at all, rather as the epitome of a perfect woman. She is gentle, beautiful, caring, and yet sensible - her handling of Rabadash is both sensitive and clever. As this incarnation she is the only positively portrayed adult female (apart from Polly ofc) and certainly the only good sexualised one.
See, I disagree. I think textually, Lewis is saying she's gentle, beautiful and caring, but I'm not sure about sensible. She's more portrayed as having come to her senses. And really, I don't see her handling the Rabadash situation at all.
In the scene in HHB, Edmund asks her if she's decided what to do about Rabadash, and when Susan says she's decided not to marry him, Edmund and the others present are all relieved and act as if she's finally come to her senses. It's a very paternalistic and patronizing conversation, where they've all known better than her all along, and were just waiting for her to realize the truth about Rabadash.
And soon Shasta found himself taking an interest in the conversation. "Now, Madam," the King was saying to Queen Susan (the lady who had kissed Shasta). "What think you? We have been in this city fully three weeks. Have you yet settled in your mind whether you will marry this dark-faced lover of yours, this Prince Rabadash, or no?"
The lady shook her head. "No, brother," she said, "not for all the jewels in Tashbaan." ("Hullo!" thought Shasta. "Although they're king and queen, they're brother and sister, not married to one another.")
"Truly, sister," said the King, "I should have loved you the less if you had taken him. And I tell you that at the first coming of the Tisroc's ambassadors into Narnia to treat of this marriage, and later when the Prince was our guest at Cair Paravel, it was a wonder to me that ever you could find it in your heart to show him so much favour."
Then it's Edmund who tells her that they're in danger in Tashbaan, that Rabadash intends to keep her there and make her his wife, no matter what, and Edmund and Tumnus clearly know what's going on, but Susan is surprised and flustered to hear this.
Everyone had begun to look very serious. Queen Susan jumped up and ran to her brother. "Oh, Edmund," she cried. "What is it? There is something dreadful in your face."
"Do you mean he would make me his wife by force?" exclaimed Susan.
When she realizes the extent of the danger they're in, she breaks down.
"I am the cause of all this," said Susan, bursting into tears. "Oh, if only I had never left Cair Paravel. Our last happy day was before those ambassadors came from Calormen. The Moles were planting an orchard for us . . . oh . . . oh."
And she buried her face in her hands and sobbed.
It's Tumnus who comes up with the plan to escape and Susan is overjoyed and dances with him while she thanks him.
And that's the last we see of Susan in HHB. Later, in Narnia, as they're riding to the battle at Anvard, Shasta asks Corin where she is.
"And where is the Queen Susan?"
"At Cair Paravel," said Corin. "She's not like Lucy, you know, who's as good as a man, or at any rate as good as a boy. Queen Susan is more like an ordinary grown-up lady. She doesn't ride to the wars, though she is an excellent archer."
She gets that compliment thrown in at the end, but it's still rather dismissive of her. So yeah, to me, even though, textually, Lewis is somewhat complimentary of her, subtextually, the portrayal of her as foolish and useless, because she's a grown woman, comes through loud and clear.
Re: Warning, long rambling ahead delta_maiFebruary 13 2011, 14:58:44 UTC
Ah, but she gives reason for why she trusted Rabadash and thought him a good suitor - he acted humble and noble in Narnia but when they got to Calmorene he "showed a different face". As soon as she realises who he really is she wants to get out of the marriage (yes her brother has to help her wtf Lewis but I try to ignore this).
In fact, how she ignored her brothers' protests and saw the good (or feigned good) in Rabadash rather shows her to be compassionate and sympathetic. She wanted to give him a chance. It turned out he really was a douche, but for me this shows her to be a good person, and certainly not foolish. Because isn't that better than her going against her own opinions and JUST AGREEING WITH HER BROTHERS FOR NO REASON OTHER THAN THEY KNOW BEST?
But you're right - the analysis of the text certainly isn't obviously complimetary to Susan, or at least, in a modern sense. I'm sure when Lewis was writing it he felt she was a good model of a woman (which kinda sucks).
Ugh, so being feminine to him is synomous with fragility while the tomboyish girls are the best. Ugh, ugh Lewis.
Though thanks so much for this - will really help in my esssay.
OH
Cos I'm doing this essay on women in narnia for my student paper - do you have any stuff you've written that could help me? :D
All this stuff makes me wonder what they're going to do if they make more films. So far the misogyny has been handled well (ish). But the rampant racisim in Last Battle is going to cause problems, as well as the Susan issue. Hmmm...
I think LB is a terrible book, especially for children. You're right - if children don't understand the whole Christian parallel (and let's face it, so few of them will be able to) then the whole thing is shocking and upsetting. I loathed it as a child, and not just because of the Susan angle, but for other reasons, namely the destruction of Narnia, the racism, and how he has Jill and Eustace AS CHILDREN KILLING MEN. What the actual fuck. But as the Calmorenes he seems to imply it's ok because they're less than human (but if you read them in the new order as I did, so HHB before LB, Calormenes have been portrayed positively and even these soldiers could have good lives and worth as people).
Now I've analysed it more, it does seem that Lewis was leaning towards using Susan as a cautionary tale not to lose faith and become obsessed with the superficial parts of life. But because she's female, and because her "superficial life" is obviously so feminine, this is still problematic from a feminist point of view. Plus, just because he's not using Susan to demonise female sexuality, that doesn't mean it's not there in the text with the two female villains.
Oh good. Ah, so there's a missing story about Susan eh? Perfect. I shall write it myself (which I already was but w/e this gives me an excuse other than "I'm a fangirl so I must fic". Which actually isn't my reason but w/e).
Me too! You actually caught me while I was checking emails before typing up my plan for my Lewis and Gender in Narnia essay (my student newspaper jumped on my project and I'll now be doing a featured essay). So this has really helped my thoughts :D
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Jadis is the most developed in the book, and she's flat-out evil. Digory's mother and Queen Helen are good, but they each get about one line, and we really don't see them developed in any meaningful fashion. We know from the text implications that they're good, because one is the hero's mother, and the other is made Queen of Narnia by Aslan, but other than that, we don't know anything about them.
Digory's aunt gets a limited but favorable portrayal - she's a tough old thing who stands up to both Uncle Andrew and to Jadis, but she's unmarried, no surprise there.
Reply
Actually I just finished the Silver Chair and omg nice totally unecessary misogynistic point at the end there, Lewis!
All the way through "Experiment House" is shown to be the epitome of bad schooling, with bullies running riot and without teaching of the Bible. (In fact, Eustace's original bad character is somewhat ascribed to how he was taught in this school). And at the end OMG THE HEAD IS A WOMAN.
*rage*
Reply
See, I disagree. I think textually, Lewis is saying she's gentle, beautiful and caring, but I'm not sure about sensible. She's more portrayed as having come to her senses. And really, I don't see her handling the Rabadash situation at all.
In the scene in HHB, Edmund asks her if she's decided what to do about Rabadash, and when Susan says she's decided not to marry him, Edmund and the others present are all relieved and act as if she's finally come to her senses. It's a very paternalistic and patronizing conversation, where they've all known better than her all along, and were just waiting for her to realize the truth about Rabadash.
And soon Shasta found himself taking an interest in the conversation. "Now, Madam," the King was saying to Queen Susan (the lady who had kissed Shasta). "What think you? We have been in this city fully three weeks. Have you yet settled in your mind whether you will marry this dark-faced lover of yours, this Prince Rabadash, or no?"
The lady shook her head. "No, brother," she said, "not for all the jewels in Tashbaan." ("Hullo!" thought Shasta. "Although they're king and queen, they're brother and sister, not married to one another.")
"Truly, sister," said the King, "I should have loved you the less if you had taken him. And I tell you that at the first coming of the Tisroc's ambassadors into Narnia to treat of this marriage, and later when the Prince was our guest at Cair Paravel, it was a wonder to me that ever you could find it in your heart to show him so much favour."
Then it's Edmund who tells her that they're in danger in Tashbaan, that Rabadash intends to keep her there and make her his wife, no matter what, and Edmund and Tumnus clearly know what's going on, but Susan is surprised and flustered to hear this.
Everyone had begun to look very serious. Queen Susan jumped up and ran to her brother. "Oh, Edmund," she cried. "What is it? There is something dreadful in your face."
"Do you mean he would make me his wife by force?" exclaimed Susan.
When she realizes the extent of the danger they're in, she breaks down.
"I am the cause of all this," said Susan, bursting into tears. "Oh, if only I had never left Cair Paravel. Our last happy day was before those ambassadors came from Calormen. The Moles were planting an orchard for us . . . oh . . . oh."
And she buried her face in her hands and sobbed.
It's Tumnus who comes up with the plan to escape and Susan is overjoyed and dances with him while she thanks him.
And that's the last we see of Susan in HHB. Later, in Narnia, as they're riding to the battle at Anvard, Shasta asks Corin where she is.
"And where is the Queen Susan?"
"At Cair Paravel," said Corin. "She's not like Lucy, you know, who's as good as a man, or at any rate as good as a boy. Queen Susan is more like an ordinary grown-up lady. She doesn't ride to the wars, though she is an excellent archer."
She gets that compliment thrown in at the end, but it's still rather dismissive of her. So yeah, to me, even though, textually, Lewis is somewhat complimentary of her, subtextually, the portrayal of her as foolish and useless, because she's a grown woman, comes through loud and clear.
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In fact, how she ignored her brothers' protests and saw the good (or feigned good) in Rabadash rather shows her to be compassionate and sympathetic. She wanted to give him a chance. It turned out he really was a douche, but for me this shows her to be a good person, and certainly not foolish. Because isn't that better than her going against her own opinions and JUST AGREEING WITH HER BROTHERS FOR NO REASON OTHER THAN THEY KNOW BEST?
But you're right - the analysis of the text certainly isn't obviously complimetary to Susan, or at least, in a modern sense. I'm sure when Lewis was writing it he felt she was a good model of a woman (which kinda sucks).
Ugh, so being feminine to him is synomous with fragility while the tomboyish girls are the best. Ugh, ugh Lewis.
Though thanks so much for this - will really help in my esssay.
OH
Cos I'm doing this essay on women in narnia for my student paper - do you have any stuff you've written that could help me? :D
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