I'm going to be the one to step up to note that, while in theory just avoiding triggery items seems the most wise course of action, what Killaurey is probably getting at here is that if there's no warning on the post itself, there's no way to avoid the trigger, because the only way to know that it's there without a warning is to stumble over it, read it completely unawares, and then deal with the backlash of being caught by something you weren't completely ready to deal with in the first place.
Sometimes, all it takes is the mention of the topic to freak a person out. I know that I've spent more than my fair share of evenings shaking and in tears because of posts that have gone up unwarned and uncut, myself. The suggestion that I've gotten when I've tried to bring it up is, "Eh, just ignore it," but if it's that triggery and sitting there as a top-level post, you can't ignore it. It's right there in your face when you try to scroll past.
I'm completely guilty of commenting on posts of a more self-destructive drug abuse nature, asking for cuts and warnings in the past. I'll continue to do so until someone finally grants my plea for a firm rule set regarding triggery subjects. I've asked for some sort of guideline in two open forums now, and both times, the response seemed to be, "We ask people to use common sense." the problem with common sense is that some people see issues where others might not imagine there are any.
On more than one occasion, things showing up this way and knocking the wind out of me have made me wonder why I haven't just picked up my ball and bat and gone home. I play two alcoholics in the game myself, and so I might be a horrible hypocrite in that sense, but I like to think that I'm either vague enough about it, or good enough at tucking it away that it doesn't leave other people stinging the way similar issues sting me.
Pinging in here, I'd have to say that I don't think there's any reason to be/feel guilty for pinging in and asking for a cut or a warning. Not thinking that something is triggery for oneself doesn't mean that it doesn't need to be cut anyway. I'm sorry that we *didn't* think to put the warning up until after Skylie mentioned it in the OOC thread. We should have, we didn't, and I apologize for that.
I agree with Erin and Ahddie's reasons listed above why it didn't trip the whole "This needs a warning alarm," but that's not really the point. There's been a lot of uncut, unwarned drug use recently, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say the common sense rule isn't working, and we need a more clearer delineation from the mods, like cut all instances of illegal drug use or addiction to any controlled substance, illegal or not. This way, it doesn't matter whether or not I forget that something might be triggery for someone else; I won't be remembering the specifics, I'll have a rule to follow. It kind of takes the burden off both parties. I don't have to think about it, because, as a rule it'll be obvious, and you (the universal you) don't have to deal with it.
Anyway, long-winded comment is long-winded, but I agree and apologize (Uh, that apology is aimed at everyone, I'm just replying to the above comment because it was relevant).
That is completely true, and I have a problem with navel-gazing when it comes to triggers -- I often turn off my computer or go distract myself otherwise when one of mine pops up, but obviously I am not everyone and YMMV! And I didn't mean to speak for everyone, either, and I apologize if it sounds like I did.
I've had some experience with top-level posts affecting me OOCly negatively, and in one instance it got to the point where I did speak to the player and asked them to cut things, or maybe try a different approach with the character. They were instantly contrite, and hadn't realized that what they were doing was something that might upset someone else, because it had been played for laughs.
I think the common sense rule is a good one, for the most part, because it's impossible to know everyone's triggers. (Mine, for instance, have to do with any kind of self-image/eating disorder/dieting stuff that's not handled perfectly) and at the risk of sounding tactless, it's not conducive to ask everyone to lock down everything all the time. To run with the alcoholic thing, if there's someone who that affects negatively OOCly, the bar posts might need to be cut, or might fall under that heading.
The rule of common sense might need to be revisited, but I think we first need to define what areas are upsetting to our players so that it doesn't turn into a "let's cut EVERYTHING" sort of thing. 'Cause yeah, we also have instances of minors being tortured/abused/etc. and that stuff is often left uncut -- let alone all the innuendo and so forth when these kids are upwards of 14. There's clearly a level of comfort established, but if it's being questions, I think it needs to be defined where and how. (I HOPE THIS MAKES SENSE.)
No, I totally agree- there are things that seem to be constantly cropping up that are causing problems to people on an OOC level, and while I might not have problems prodding now and again to ask for cuts, I can't help but think that there are other people who are being affected in a similar way who won't ask for the same.
Even just a list of guidelines, something like, "You might want to consider cutting and warning if..." would be a godsend, at this point. Obviously things like Caritas involving drinking and Fight Club involving violence are going to be a given, but when things like students getting drunk in the common rooms starts cropping up on a regular basis, I think it's time to take a step back, look at what's going on, and do something about it. Even if all that happens is that someone steps up and asks people to use a little more HTML and a slightly longer OOC note when they post.
I totally agree with this, in principle and in theory. But it's also completely impossible to nail down a list of things that need to be cut from an admin perspective. Like, I agree that if there's this much controversy surrounding drug use, that might need to go on a list along with violence/rape/etc. But I also know that like -- for instance, my disordered eating thing is so specific that I can't expect the admins to add that to their list of things to cut, because then any girl in the game on a diet would have to cut it. (Not that it happens often, but it's my readiest example.)
It's completely subjective, and while yes, maybe drugs should be added to the list, I'm not sure we can account for everything, you know? The reason the rule of common sense exists is because it's not possible to account for everyone's triggers. I'm not sure there's a perfect solution.
I'm not asking for a perfect solution, hon. All I want to see is an attempt. to be perfectly honest, eating disorders are a trigger of mine, as well- And there is a very definite line between dieting healthily and putting your body through unnecessary stress in the name of getting thinner. A list would be difficult to nail down- And I would never dream of saying that no, people can't play these things, but even if there was a set of guidelines that people might want to keep an eye out for, what harm does it really do?
To be perfectly honest, if you're not certain, then you should be cutting your posts and warning for possible triggers. It's common courtesy at least, and at best? You could be saving someone a lot of grief.
And to be honest beyond that, I don't think there is a rule of common sense. There's a request that people put it to use, but I've spoken to members of the administration in the past begging for them to keep an eye on people who were throwing around seriously sensitive subjects willy-nilly, and I know of other people who have done the same, and their advice to just ignore it hasn't helped. To be frank, it stings. It feels like I'm overreacting because something pings on personal issues for me, and somehow I'm the one at fault just for wishing that somebody took the time to be considerate while posting topics of self-abuse and worse.
... How dare I?
A rudimentary list of, "You might want to consider a warning if your post deals with these subjects," would not be difficult to nail down, I don't think. It just takes effort.
I hesitated to comment on the discussion (Hi Killaurey!) because it's confusing to dance across the lines of commenting as player/mod/RL journal, but I did want to point out just factually and hopefully helpfully, that we did give a list, and it includes drug issues. It's in the last Open Forum roundup, but I'll quote rather than make y'all go look it up:
Issues that we would strongly suggest should be warned for and posted behind a cut-tag if they're actually occurring or being described in detail in a post: character death, extreme violence/torture, graphic description of injuries, sexual assault, self-injury, abuse of drugs - (not the use of intoxicants, but posts that deliberately showcase addictive or dangerous behavior with them), and as always, not-worksafe sex scenes or images. These posts don't have to be locked, just marked so that people reading them will know what they're getting into.
So, things might need fine-tuning, there might need to be more discussion, people might need to be reminded of it and yeah, as a game we're still always going to end up in situations where someone plain forgets, or one person's concept of 'graphic' or 'abuse' and so on isn't the same as another's, but there is a list and it does include the issue.
It's good to know that it's there, then. Is the roundup the only place that this suggestion is posted? If there are things that are going on and around, how to we, as players who are facing serious triggers, approach the situation?
These are things- People passing out in bushes in public comms after overdosing on their drug of choice, drinking in common rooms, and the list goes on- that strike me as obvious triggers. I don't want to be the one asking the players to cut and warn, anymore. It's tiring. It's not my job. Should I consider drafting up formal complains to the Admin team, in situations like this?
I don't know what to do. At the very least, some sort of public reminder that the rule exists would be great, because there are some characters whose actions (and I won't name names here. This isn't a finger-pointing extravaganza) are getting worrisome, and out of hand. And there's no way to avoid these actions when these characters have started pinging off of mine, inebriated or worse, without so much as asking me beforehand if I'm okay with it.
Here we reach a point where I really can't answer in any way that doesn't involve me speaking for the whole admin team, which I have no right to do. So my suggestion would be to send the whole set of questions to the team itself.
(Aside from 'is it posted anywhere else?' I can answer that one! It's linked on the FH user info now. I'm the one who updates that, so I can say straight-up that forgetting to add that link earlier was my own oversight.)
I know that you can't really answer anything further without the whole mod-hat thing coming but, but I just wanted to thank you for reading and for answering what you have and for the reminder that it was in the last Open Forum (though as that was last August, I have to admit, I'm not sure I can blame people for not remembering) and the idea passing our questions in this case on to the whole team.
No problem! And like I said to Shannon, yeah, that should have been posted someplace central after the OF so it would be there for reference - it's one of the updates to the index on the FH userinfo that I just plain missed making at the time.
MP already covered the fact that there is a list (which I totally could have sworn there was but I'm also the world's laziest person so I didn't go look for it), but I do want to say that the rule of common sense pertains to "Use your common sense about posting this."
And as pointed out above, there are varying levels of who has common sense, and what everyone feels falls under that umbrella. There are players who don't use their best judgment, or who post without a warning without thinking, or whatever. And generally, as in this case, they're asked to cut or put a warning on it or to even remove the objectionable material, and peace is relatively restored. But there are players who don't get it, or who have different opinions about what constitutes 'graphic,' et cetera. And as much as these players need to be reminded, babysitting shouldn't become the administration's whole job, either.
So I guess that, in this case a warning had to be asked for, and that's regrettable. But since we do have the list, I'm not sure where to go from here. A reminder? As MP said, fine-tuning?
Sometimes, all it takes is the mention of the topic to freak a person out. I know that I've spent more than my fair share of evenings shaking and in tears because of posts that have gone up unwarned and uncut, myself. The suggestion that I've gotten when I've tried to bring it up is, "Eh, just ignore it," but if it's that triggery and sitting there as a top-level post, you can't ignore it. It's right there in your face when you try to scroll past.
I'm completely guilty of commenting on posts of a more self-destructive drug abuse nature, asking for cuts and warnings in the past. I'll continue to do so until someone finally grants my plea for a firm rule set regarding triggery subjects. I've asked for some sort of guideline in two open forums now, and both times, the response seemed to be, "We ask people to use common sense." the problem with common sense is that some people see issues where others might not imagine there are any.
On more than one occasion, things showing up this way and knocking the wind out of me have made me wonder why I haven't just picked up my ball and bat and gone home. I play two alcoholics in the game myself, and so I might be a horrible hypocrite in that sense, but I like to think that I'm either vague enough about it, or good enough at tucking it away that it doesn't leave other people stinging the way similar issues sting me.
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I agree with Erin and Ahddie's reasons listed above why it didn't trip the whole "This needs a warning alarm," but that's not really the point. There's been a lot of uncut, unwarned drug use recently, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say the common sense rule isn't working, and we need a more clearer delineation from the mods, like cut all instances of illegal drug use or addiction to any controlled substance, illegal or not. This way, it doesn't matter whether or not I forget that something might be triggery for someone else; I won't be remembering the specifics, I'll have a rule to follow. It kind of takes the burden off both parties. I don't have to think about it, because, as a rule it'll be obvious, and you (the universal you) don't have to deal with it.
Anyway, long-winded comment is long-winded, but I agree and apologize (Uh, that apology is aimed at everyone, I'm just replying to the above comment because it was relevant).
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I've had some experience with top-level posts affecting me OOCly negatively, and in one instance it got to the point where I did speak to the player and asked them to cut things, or maybe try a different approach with the character. They were instantly contrite, and hadn't realized that what they were doing was something that might upset someone else, because it had been played for laughs.
I think the common sense rule is a good one, for the most part, because it's impossible to know everyone's triggers. (Mine, for instance, have to do with any kind of self-image/eating disorder/dieting stuff that's not handled perfectly) and at the risk of sounding tactless, it's not conducive to ask everyone to lock down everything all the time. To run with the alcoholic thing, if there's someone who that affects negatively OOCly, the bar posts might need to be cut, or might fall under that heading.
The rule of common sense might need to be revisited, but I think we first need to define what areas are upsetting to our players so that it doesn't turn into a "let's cut EVERYTHING" sort of thing. 'Cause yeah, we also have instances of minors being tortured/abused/etc. and that stuff is often left uncut -- let alone all the innuendo and so forth when these kids are upwards of 14. There's clearly a level of comfort established, but if it's being questions, I think it needs to be defined where and how. (I HOPE THIS MAKES SENSE.)
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No, I totally agree- there are things that seem to be constantly cropping up that are causing problems to people on an OOC level, and while I might not have problems prodding now and again to ask for cuts, I can't help but think that there are other people who are being affected in a similar way who won't ask for the same.
Even just a list of guidelines, something like, "You might want to consider cutting and warning if..." would be a godsend, at this point. Obviously things like Caritas involving drinking and Fight Club involving violence are going to be a given, but when things like students getting drunk in the common rooms starts cropping up on a regular basis, I think it's time to take a step back, look at what's going on, and do something about it. Even if all that happens is that someone steps up and asks people to use a little more HTML and a slightly longer OOC note when they post.
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It's completely subjective, and while yes, maybe drugs should be added to the list, I'm not sure we can account for everything, you know? The reason the rule of common sense exists is because it's not possible to account for everyone's triggers. I'm not sure there's a perfect solution.
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To be perfectly honest, if you're not certain, then you should be cutting your posts and warning for possible triggers. It's common courtesy at least, and at best? You could be saving someone a lot of grief.
And to be honest beyond that, I don't think there is a rule of common sense. There's a request that people put it to use, but I've spoken to members of the administration in the past begging for them to keep an eye on people who were throwing around seriously sensitive subjects willy-nilly, and I know of other people who have done the same, and their advice to just ignore it hasn't helped. To be frank, it stings. It feels like I'm overreacting because something pings on personal issues for me, and somehow I'm the one at fault just for wishing that somebody took the time to be considerate while posting topics of self-abuse and worse.
... How dare I?
A rudimentary list of, "You might want to consider a warning if your post deals with these subjects," would not be difficult to nail down, I don't think. It just takes effort.
Reply
Issues that we would strongly suggest should be warned for and posted behind a cut-tag if they're actually occurring or being described in detail in a post: character death, extreme violence/torture, graphic description of injuries, sexual assault, self-injury, abuse of drugs - (not the use of intoxicants, but posts that deliberately showcase addictive or dangerous behavior with them), and as always, not-worksafe sex scenes or images. These posts don't have to be locked, just marked so that people reading them will know what they're getting into.
So, things might need fine-tuning, there might need to be more discussion, people might need to be reminded of it and yeah, as a game we're still always going to end up in situations where someone plain forgets, or one person's concept of 'graphic' or 'abuse' and so on isn't the same as another's, but there is a list and it does include the issue.
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These are things- People passing out in bushes in public comms after overdosing on their drug of choice, drinking in common rooms, and the list goes on- that strike me as obvious triggers. I don't want to be the one asking the players to cut and warn, anymore. It's tiring. It's not my job. Should I consider drafting up formal complains to the Admin team, in situations like this?
I don't know what to do. At the very least, some sort of public reminder that the rule exists would be great, because there are some characters whose actions (and I won't name names here. This isn't a finger-pointing extravaganza) are getting worrisome, and out of hand. And there's no way to avoid these actions when these characters have started pinging off of mine, inebriated or worse, without so much as asking me beforehand if I'm okay with it.
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(Aside from 'is it posted anywhere else?' I can answer that one! It's linked on the FH user info now. I'm the one who updates that, so I can say straight-up that forgetting to add that link earlier was my own oversight.)
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I know that you can't really answer anything further without the whole mod-hat thing coming but, but I just wanted to thank you for reading and for answering what you have and for the reminder that it was in the last Open Forum (though as that was last August, I have to admit, I'm not sure I can blame people for not remembering) and the idea passing our questions in this case on to the whole team.
So--thank you.
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And as pointed out above, there are varying levels of who has common sense, and what everyone feels falls under that umbrella. There are players who don't use their best judgment, or who post without a warning without thinking, or whatever. And generally, as in this case, they're asked to cut or put a warning on it or to even remove the objectionable material, and peace is relatively restored. But there are players who don't get it, or who have different opinions about what constitutes 'graphic,' et cetera. And as much as these players need to be reminded, babysitting shouldn't become the administration's whole job, either.
So I guess that, in this case a warning had to be asked for, and that's regrettable. But since we do have the list, I'm not sure where to go from here. A reminder? As MP said, fine-tuning?
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