Second time around...ROTK with a newbie and thoughts on Movie!Frodo and Sam
So I saw ROTK again with my friend who's a newbie and her reactions were
P originally saw FOTR before I did and when I asked her how Frodo was she said he "wasn't in it much." She's just one of those people who doesn't get Frodo at all, except to say he's "very strange looking." Loves Aragorn, hated the parts in the Shire. She preferred TTT because it was more of Aragorn's movie. I warned her about the multiple endings, most of which are in the Shire, and that this movie was hobbit-centric which I loved. She said that was okay, she was prepared for parts she wouldn't like.
So the result? She loved it. The hobbits won her over--YOU GO GUYS! She flashed me a huge grin when Merry was trembling before the battle.
Also, she loved Faramir because he was--get this--SO NOBLE. Here we were all worried about his nobility being gone and that was her pronouncement after ROTK (and she's a big one for nobillity in men too--thus, the Aragorn love). Also very OOC her, she very much wished that Faramir and Eowyn ended up together because she thought they were perfect for each other. She was very happy to hear that they do.
But here's the best bit. She still loved Aragorn, but said this movie obviously belonged to Gandalf ("the world's greatest general") and Frodo. I'm like, "Frodo?? You mean...you...thought he was the hero?" She said yeah, this was his movie. She also loved Sam and said his "I can't carry it for you..." moment was totally incredible. She had no trouble with them splitting and was surprised anyone would think Sam was actually going far when he turned around. All in all, a very happy Tolkien virgin and me!
I've also been thinking more about
When you're a fan of the books, it's just impossible to watch the movie completely objectively. Still, I think a lot of times we make it hard for ourselves by constantly comparing the characters to their book counterparts instead of seeing them as separate entities. In ROTK the temptation is to think about what's going on in the book in these scenes and take changes as a comment on that text when really we should be thinking about Movie F&S in TTT and FOTR. When you think of the book the movie starts telling a sort of story in negative--since they separate when they don't in the book, the movie appears to be telling us they are separate, if that makes sense. Anything that's different seems like it's maybe much more significant, to me at least.
But in leaving the book behind (or trying to) I find it interesting how the movie chose to deal with F&S dramatically. They knew that the source of drama here came from the Terrible Trio of F/G/S, with each one having his own private struggles. Frodo struggles with the ring, Gollum struggles with his love for Frodo, Sam struggles with his suspicions of Gollum and worry over Frodo. This is the way the movies seemed to handle it, imo.
In TTT Frodo seems primarily afraid. He hasn't yet accepted his destiny and is trying to cling to hope for personal salvation. That's why in TTT he actively wants Gollum to be redeemable, is so happy when he appears to be turning around, is so defensive when Sam says it's hopeless. Sam is unaware of Frodo's connection to Gollum--that is, he's unaware the Frodo is aware of it. But he notices the signs--he points out Frodo can't take his eyes off the ring, etc. It's been suggested--and I took this very seriously--that Frodo's care for Gollum is misguided and has no effect. But actually, I think that TTT tried to play out the fact that it was effective, it just changed exactly how Gollum came to reject his chances for redemption. I think Gollum in TTT is indeed entertaining thoughts of being good with Master taking care of him. At the end of TTT he's given up on that idea and Smeagol is as evil as ever. Frodo, too, gives up on his fantasies. His line, "I can't do this," imo, referred to more than just destroying the ring, but saving himself. (Before that he confessed to Sam that the ring was "taking him.")
In ROTK I think we see Frodo in a very different place. I think he has separated himself from Gollum and no longer projects any wishes for redemption onto him. He's no longer defensive of Gollum. He protects him from Sam, certainly, but he doesn't argue with Sam's view of his character, just says they need a guide. I honestly don't think Frodo is placing his hope in Gollum's being redeemed anymore in ROTK. His struggle is no longer about trying to hold on to himself but get to the mountain with the ring.
Since Movie Frodo has now gotten to a point where he's basically focused on his task and ready to do whatever he has to do, Sam has his chance to struggle with the ring in his own way. In TTT he feared for Frodo's sanity with the ring, now he's focused on the threat coming from Gollum. He gets more and more frazzled--in a way he's in a similar state that Frodo was in TTT, not wanting to wait around for Gollum to murder them. But there's nothing he can do, Frodo is determined to keep Gollum as a guide, and Sam's fear makes him an easy target for Gollum and the ring. Sam reacts to fear in a typical Sam way, by wanting to tdo something about all the threats. After the scene at the pool in ROTK Frodo tells Sam to trust him and at first I thought that was a weird line--it's not Frodo that Sam doesn't trust, it's Gollum. But now I realize it was Frodo as well. Sam was having a hard time accepting Frodo's decision about Gollum and this also led him to doubt Frodo's strength in general and therefore...oops!...ask if maybe he shouldn't just take the ring for a while.
That makes Frodo send him away--but not by snapping at him. Frodo thinks he's making the right decision here. Shortly thereafter, probably around the same time, Sam and Frodo both realize exactly how they've been tricked when Frodo finds himself lost in the cave and Sam sees the lembas bread. And they both react by stopping their tears, getting a determined look on their face and going on.
I don't think Sam is being literally influenced by the ring when he offers to take it the first time, at least not any more than, say, Boromir was being influenced the first time he said the ring should go to Gondor. What's great, though, is that Frodo's mistake leads to Sam actually having to carry the ring so in Cirith Ungol we get Sam's temptation for real. It sounds just like before--I just wanted to help--but just a little off. (I wonder if they did The One Ring challenge today there would be more stories about Sam after that scene--I thought Sean Astin was great in it.) We also get a repeat of what Frodo did earlier for real--he still wants/needs the ring and just might have jumped on Sam if he hadn't handed it over, but he seems to also genuinely want to keep Sam from turning into what he himself has turned into.
Regarding Frodo and Gollum, I did ultimately see Frodo as forgiving Gollum knowing full well how irredeemable he was. The way I read their fight in Shelob's cave, I thought the reason Frodo stopped throttling Gollum when he claimed the Precious had made him lead Frodo into a trap wasn't because he thought Gollum wasn't responsible for his actions but because of what the Precious might make he himself do for it--starting with murder. When he told Gollum he had to destroy the ring for both of them I didn't think there was anything in his delivery that suggested he thought there was any hope Gollum was "on his side" as Sam was. In TTT his conversations with Gollum always had an eagerness to them, like Gollum's reaction really matters to him. Think of how tense he is in telling Gollum what he knows about him ("Gandalf said you were one of the River Folk...") for instance. In ROTK he seems much more removed from Gollum, and his line about destroying the ring "for both of them" was, imo, said with the understanding that Gollum would not see this as Frodo doing anything for him. It sounded to me like he considered their connection a tiresome fact now, not something he thought offered either of them any hope. JMO.
P originally saw FOTR before I did and when I asked her how Frodo was she said he "wasn't in it much." She's just one of those people who doesn't get Frodo at all, except to say he's "very strange looking." Loves Aragorn, hated the parts in the Shire. She preferred TTT because it was more of Aragorn's movie. I warned her about the multiple endings, most of which are in the Shire, and that this movie was hobbit-centric which I loved. She said that was okay, she was prepared for parts she wouldn't like.
So the result? She loved it. The hobbits won her over--YOU GO GUYS! She flashed me a huge grin when Merry was trembling before the battle.
Also, she loved Faramir because he was--get this--SO NOBLE. Here we were all worried about his nobility being gone and that was her pronouncement after ROTK (and she's a big one for nobillity in men too--thus, the Aragorn love). Also very OOC her, she very much wished that Faramir and Eowyn ended up together because she thought they were perfect for each other. She was very happy to hear that they do.
But here's the best bit. She still loved Aragorn, but said this movie obviously belonged to Gandalf ("the world's greatest general") and Frodo. I'm like, "Frodo?? You mean...you...thought he was the hero?" She said yeah, this was his movie. She also loved Sam and said his "I can't carry it for you..." moment was totally incredible. She had no trouble with them splitting and was surprised anyone would think Sam was actually going far when he turned around. All in all, a very happy Tolkien virgin and me!
I've also been thinking more about
When you're a fan of the books, it's just impossible to watch the movie completely objectively. Still, I think a lot of times we make it hard for ourselves by constantly comparing the characters to their book counterparts instead of seeing them as separate entities. In ROTK the temptation is to think about what's going on in the book in these scenes and take changes as a comment on that text when really we should be thinking about Movie F&S in TTT and FOTR. When you think of the book the movie starts telling a sort of story in negative--since they separate when they don't in the book, the movie appears to be telling us they are separate, if that makes sense. Anything that's different seems like it's maybe much more significant, to me at least.
But in leaving the book behind (or trying to) I find it interesting how the movie chose to deal with F&S dramatically. They knew that the source of drama here came from the Terrible Trio of F/G/S, with each one having his own private struggles. Frodo struggles with the ring, Gollum struggles with his love for Frodo, Sam struggles with his suspicions of Gollum and worry over Frodo. This is the way the movies seemed to handle it, imo.
In TTT Frodo seems primarily afraid. He hasn't yet accepted his destiny and is trying to cling to hope for personal salvation. That's why in TTT he actively wants Gollum to be redeemable, is so happy when he appears to be turning around, is so defensive when Sam says it's hopeless. Sam is unaware of Frodo's connection to Gollum--that is, he's unaware the Frodo is aware of it. But he notices the signs--he points out Frodo can't take his eyes off the ring, etc. It's been suggested--and I took this very seriously--that Frodo's care for Gollum is misguided and has no effect. But actually, I think that TTT tried to play out the fact that it was effective, it just changed exactly how Gollum came to reject his chances for redemption. I think Gollum in TTT is indeed entertaining thoughts of being good with Master taking care of him. At the end of TTT he's given up on that idea and Smeagol is as evil as ever. Frodo, too, gives up on his fantasies. His line, "I can't do this," imo, referred to more than just destroying the ring, but saving himself. (Before that he confessed to Sam that the ring was "taking him.")
In ROTK I think we see Frodo in a very different place. I think he has separated himself from Gollum and no longer projects any wishes for redemption onto him. He's no longer defensive of Gollum. He protects him from Sam, certainly, but he doesn't argue with Sam's view of his character, just says they need a guide. I honestly don't think Frodo is placing his hope in Gollum's being redeemed anymore in ROTK. His struggle is no longer about trying to hold on to himself but get to the mountain with the ring.
Since Movie Frodo has now gotten to a point where he's basically focused on his task and ready to do whatever he has to do, Sam has his chance to struggle with the ring in his own way. In TTT he feared for Frodo's sanity with the ring, now he's focused on the threat coming from Gollum. He gets more and more frazzled--in a way he's in a similar state that Frodo was in TTT, not wanting to wait around for Gollum to murder them. But there's nothing he can do, Frodo is determined to keep Gollum as a guide, and Sam's fear makes him an easy target for Gollum and the ring. Sam reacts to fear in a typical Sam way, by wanting to tdo something about all the threats. After the scene at the pool in ROTK Frodo tells Sam to trust him and at first I thought that was a weird line--it's not Frodo that Sam doesn't trust, it's Gollum. But now I realize it was Frodo as well. Sam was having a hard time accepting Frodo's decision about Gollum and this also led him to doubt Frodo's strength in general and therefore...oops!...ask if maybe he shouldn't just take the ring for a while.
That makes Frodo send him away--but not by snapping at him. Frodo thinks he's making the right decision here. Shortly thereafter, probably around the same time, Sam and Frodo both realize exactly how they've been tricked when Frodo finds himself lost in the cave and Sam sees the lembas bread. And they both react by stopping their tears, getting a determined look on their face and going on.
I don't think Sam is being literally influenced by the ring when he offers to take it the first time, at least not any more than, say, Boromir was being influenced the first time he said the ring should go to Gondor. What's great, though, is that Frodo's mistake leads to Sam actually having to carry the ring so in Cirith Ungol we get Sam's temptation for real. It sounds just like before--I just wanted to help--but just a little off. (I wonder if they did The One Ring challenge today there would be more stories about Sam after that scene--I thought Sean Astin was great in it.) We also get a repeat of what Frodo did earlier for real--he still wants/needs the ring and just might have jumped on Sam if he hadn't handed it over, but he seems to also genuinely want to keep Sam from turning into what he himself has turned into.
Regarding Frodo and Gollum, I did ultimately see Frodo as forgiving Gollum knowing full well how irredeemable he was. The way I read their fight in Shelob's cave, I thought the reason Frodo stopped throttling Gollum when he claimed the Precious had made him lead Frodo into a trap wasn't because he thought Gollum wasn't responsible for his actions but because of what the Precious might make he himself do for it--starting with murder. When he told Gollum he had to destroy the ring for both of them I didn't think there was anything in his delivery that suggested he thought there was any hope Gollum was "on his side" as Sam was. In TTT his conversations with Gollum always had an eagerness to them, like Gollum's reaction really matters to him. Think of how tense he is in telling Gollum what he knows about him ("Gandalf said you were one of the River Folk...") for instance. In ROTK he seems much more removed from Gollum, and his line about destroying the ring "for both of them" was, imo, said with the understanding that Gollum would not see this as Frodo doing anything for him. It sounded to me like he considered their connection a tiresome fact now, not something he thought offered either of them any hope. JMO.