Superchick BFFs FTW

[sistermagpie]

I was reading an entry today about the Bechdel test, that famous test for stories where by you ask if the female characters ever talk to other females, and if so, do they talk about a man? jlh raises some really good points, though, about how this test really doesn't work when applied to romance, since romance is the plot of the story and everyone is

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[ali_wildgoose]

Dangerous Ladies, all the way. <3

[sistermagpie]

OMG, yes! I knew there'd be something obvious I forgot.

And I should also put in Katara/Toph, a classic example of people who don't immediately get along but come to have a strong relationship anyway.

[ali_wildgoose]

I cannot wait for the Katara/Toph comic to come out so I can show it to you! I love their arm-punching, mud-flinging, daddy-issues friendship a WHOLE DAMN LOT. <3

[sistermagpie]

Oh my god. That almost sounds too good. I love how on ATLA you can throw any two characters together and get awesome.

[jlh]

The problem, of course, is that you're talking about sitcoms, which fandom doesn't care about-which apparently many genre fans don't like at all? I don't know, I can only say that I never ran into people who will say, "I hate all sitcoms" until I came into fandom. If you gave this list to that gang over there, they'd discount pretty much every title you have here.

Argh! Sorry, I'm just so frustrated with this dismissive attitude. I've only recently come to a place where I'm willing to say "I don't really care for action" and that's only to save myself trouble, not to be dismissive of what other people like.

[sistermagpie]

See, and how sad am I at people dismissing all sitcoms because I love so many! And I know people IRL who are the same way. But honestly, it's not fair to dismiss them and also say that TV doesn't show female friendships because they show a lot. And why is that, that on sitcoms the writers are like "Oh yes, and of course this relationship would be important" where they don't do that elsewhere? (Except on some of those annoying "men and dads are fun" shows where the dads always have friends while the mothers are like their mom with no funny friends

[khym_chanur]

The problem, of course, is that you're talking about sitcoms, which fandom doesn't care about-which apparently many genre fans don't like at all?

Huh, that's weird. I'm ever only really on the fringes of fandom (except for the meta and Fandom Wank), so this is just a wild guess, but maybe it's that they don't like to write or read fanfic about sitcoms? Comedy is hard to write, so many writers might want to avoid it, and it might be hard to find fanfic writers who write it well.

Anyways, I'm also curious as to what these people would think about slice-of-life comedy like Azumanga Daioh and Yotsuba&!. (That is, assuming there's any real distinction between sitcoms and slice-of-life comedy)

[lady_ganesh]

But I think part of it is that we're expressing our frustration that there aren't good female characters on shows we like. I don't like medical shows-- which is why I used Grey's as an example. I watch sitcoms, but they don't get under my skin the way the dramas I like do, and there are some really, really shitty sitcoms out there when it comes to the Bechdel test. (Two and a Half Men comes to mind.) Even some of the 'good' sitcoms like Big Bang Theory just doesn't have enough female characters to pass the test very often.

I don't want to have to change my tastes just to find acceptable female characters, let alone more than one.

[musesfool]

I always loved the Trixie/Honey friendship from the Trixie Belden books. I would also offer Veronica/Mac from Veronica Mars. One of the problems as the show went on was that Veronica came to be surrounded almost completely by men, but I though what little they gave us of Veronica and Mac was pretty awesome. Also Kaylee and Inara, and Kaylee and River from Firefly. Again there wasn't much in the way of canon, but Kaylee did have lovely friendships with them

[sistermagpie]

I love that I am so totally unfamiliar with most of these shows! I mean, not because I hate them or anything they're just mostly all shows I've rarely seen for whatever reason. Except for Dark Angel and I loved Max and original Cindy.

That's a good question about their fighting about things other than men. I'm honestly not sure. It certainly shows they have common interests other than men. Another good thing is just when they show them fighting and not fighting so it's not a case of being perfect or catty.

[musesfool]

I highly recommend at least the first four seasons of Gilmore Girls, especially if you like shows about mothers and daughters. Everyone talks about the Lorelai-Rory relationship, but for my money, it's the Emily-Lorelai bits that are most worth it, and most likely to break your heart in recognition.

It certainly shows they have common interests other than men. Another good thing is just when they show them fighting and not fighting so it's not a case of being perfect or catty.

Yes. Kat and Kara have many issues between them, but men are not one of them.

[lolaraincoat]

Well, the Bechdel test originally (as in, in the comic strip she wrote) was "two women talking to each other for more than ten seconds about anything other than a man." BSG passed that test easily on many occasions, though often what the women were talking about was a baby or babies, which was not so great either.

[static_pixie]

I know you will laugh, but it's true, Gossip Girl, I think, has a really great female friendship between the two lead girls. When it starts off they've been torn apart by a boy (Serena slept with Nate, Blair's boyfriend at the time), but the boy isn't the issue as much as the fact that Serena left for a year without telling Blair why she was leaving and without telling Blair about hooking up with Nate. The second part comes out and Blair's pissed about it, but the fight really culminates in a scene where Blair reads Serena a letter she never sent her asking her where she is and why she left without saying goodbye and telling her how much she needs her now that everything's going wrong in her world (she spends one phrase total on Nate in the letter), so the big problem all along was never Nate it was the betrayal of their friendship

[sistermagpie]

I will totally not laugh! Because that actually makes sense--if you're writing about teenagers you should look at friendships, and girl friendships can be really intense then.

I love the example you gave with the letter--because that's totally equal to m/m friendships and the way they get shown imo. It's like in movies like Superbad where the guys are chasing girls but the real tension turns out to come from their insecurity and anger at each other. Which doesn't mean they won't ever have relationships with women or get married, but the movie is focused on something else, and as teenagers this is important.

But just so much word about how too often the guys are getting along great while the girls are catty. Girl friendships might be less easy-going at that age, but there's a difference between that and just catty and back-stabbing. That was one of the things I got so frustrated by when I would try to write girls mass market fiction instead of boys? Because people always wanted it to be about jealousy and hotties.

Here via metafandom

[agnes_bean]

But just so much word about how too often the guys are getting along great while the girls are catty.

Word. This is something else I like about Gossip Girl: the guys fight, and talk about girls, about as much as the girls fight, and talk about guys, so even if the female relationships aren't portrayed as perfect, it doesn't feel like their problems are being presented as female-centric.

[isiscolo]

I've been listening to the audiobook version of the No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency series, and I particularly enjoy the relationship that Mma Ramotswe and Mma Makutsi have. On the one hand, they are boss and employee, but they are also friends, and I especially like the bits of story that show their friendship.

[sistermagpie]

That sounds cool. There have been plenty of friendships in fiction where the people were in roles of different rank, after all.