Iroh, Dragon of the West
Okay, the Avatar finale--so much awesome. And I haven't heard a lot of complaining about it, but right after it was over there were some issues raised about stuff being done badly that I heard. So this is my post about how I actually think those same things were done REALLY AWESOMELY!
( The function of Iroh--and a little bit Ursa--in the finale--spoilers within, obviously )
( The function of Iroh--and a little bit Ursa--in the finale--spoilers within, obviously )
With Katara I didn't think he was pushing her so much as agreeing with her. She was angry about what happened to her mother, and Zuko saw how to resolve it. Both of them saw "forgiving" as just letting justice go undone. Neither of them could really understand the concept of forgiving the way Aang did at that point, imo, maybe because of all the ways they're alike. They're both idealists who seem much more bothered about the world not being perfect than Aang is.
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It is a geniune question. It's also a question that Zuko believes he knows the answer to. Sokka is impatient with Aang: everyone is, even the old Avatars. No one gives Aang any other advice than to kill Ozzai, not even Zuko. Zuko actually teaches Aang how to deflect lightning and tells him plainly that when Aang deflects Ozzai's lightning, he has to redirect it back at his father. The whole reason why Aang ends up running away, spiritually at least, is because he's surrounded by people who don't understand that he has a problem with ending anybody's life and who are reminding him that yes, you are running out of time.
With Katara I didn't think he was pushing her so much as agreeing with her. She was angry about what happened to her mother, and Zuko saw how to resolve it.
Zuko is the one who actually creates the situation where Katara can find her revenge. When Aang and Sokka try to talk her out of it, he counter-acts them. At no time is he the passive, silent supporter. Katara doesn't approach him for information on her mother's killers. It is Zuko that actively presents her with the possibility for revenge (and it's made clear that this is revenge not justice: Aang forces Katara to admit this). Zuko is cast as the "evil conscience" to Sokka's and Aang's "good conscience" and when the duo do find the Southern Raiders, Zuko plays an active role in isolating Kya's murdererer; and then disarming him later with Firebending for Katara to take her revenge.
Neither of them could really understand the concept of forgiving the way Aang did at that point, imo, maybe because of all the ways they're alike.
Firstly, at the end of the episode, neither have understood the concept of forgiveness because Katara hasn't forgiven her mother's murderer. She just wasn't able to become a murderer herself. Zuko understood that Katara didn't need violence. He also hasn't reached the level of enlightnment that Aang had over the Air Nomad genocide.
And this is where I get the OOC vibe. The distinction between vengeance and justice is something that Zuko - up until Southern Raiders - had always appeared to understand. When Zuko confronts his father, it's not about revenge. It is about a larger sense of honour, this time extending to the whole of the Fire Nation. He's not calling the old man out to pay him back for his scar or his abused childhood. He's calling the old man out because he has to side against Ozzai and the Fire Nation's reign of terror in the world. He could have killed Ozzai then - first with his swords, and later when he redirects lightning but he doesn't. It's not because Zuko forgives Ozzai. It's because to kill him was not his job. Ozzai needed to be handed over to a higher form of justice - the Avatar. When Zuko is in a position to harm other personal enemies - Zhao and Azula - he stays his hand.
They're both idealists who seem much more bothered about the world not being perfect than Aang is.
Aang and his "can't we just kiss and make up with Ozzai" approach to confrontation is more of an idealist than any other person in the show. Zuko is the hard-headed realist, who literally says "I know you're afraid, but this is something you have to do."
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Yes, he does do that, and he counter-acts the other people. But what I mean is, there's no scene where Katara herself is hesitatnt and Zuko is pushing her. The two of them seem to just be on the same page to begin with. When he learns what happened he thinks finding the guy who did it is the solution and when he presents it to her she seems to think the same thing. I just didn't think it was a case of Zuko pushing Katara at all. Of the two of them, Zuko is totally on board with what she's doing, but she's even more gung-ho than he is. Zuko is there to enable her and helps get her to where she's got the guy in her power, but even his bringing the information to her isn't presented as Zuko pressuring her or telling her this is what she must do. So when she backs off the guy Zuko sees that as fine too. Making this better for Katara is his goal more than needing to see her get revenge.
Firstly, at the end of the episode, neither have understood the concept of forgiveness because Katara hasn't forgiven her mother's murderer.
She says she's forgiven Zuko, so it seems like she's gotten somewhere with the concept. With regards to the murderer, Katara thinks her not killing the guy may be a sign of strength, though she's not sure. She hasn't totally gotten it, but it seems like the episode is mostly about bringing her to where she can see the possibility of what Aang is saying.
I see what you're saying now about Zuko, that the OOCness comes from the fact that he's never been about revenge to begin with and just becomes so here so that he can represent the opposite of what Aang is saying? You could have a point there.
Aang and his "can't we just kiss and make up with Ozzai" approach to confrontation is more of an idealist than any other person in the show. Zuko is the hard-headed realist, who literally says "I know you're afraid, but this is something you have to do."
I think of idealists being active in trying to change the world--I'm using the word in the way I took Iroh to be using it, to refer to a leader, as opposed to just somebody who likes to see the good in things. Aang seems more about live and let live and seeing the best in people--sometimes his optimism is more about avoiding necessary action. Zuko to me seems more like an idealist in that he wants to actively change things to make them better. Maybe I'm just using the word differently, but Zuko's line to Aang doesn't necessarily make him seem less of an idealist to me. I guess I think of that attitude being the thing that would push him to shape the world into the way he thought it should be.
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You’re forgetting one thing: On board the Southern Raiders’ ship, Katara walks away after finding out that she got the wrong man. It is only after Zuko tortures the man for information about Kya’s murderer, that Katara is now back on her path for revenge.
In fact, Zuko’s role to Katara’s revenge story is even creepier because of the passive enabling. By putting her on that path and making sure she doesn’t derail from it, it’s as if he’s living out his own issues/revenge fantasy through her because he knows he’d never be able/have the guts to kill anyone in an act of revenge.
She says she's forgiven Zuko, so it seems like she's gotten somewhere with the concept.
I just wish I knew why she forgave Zuko, since other than bring out the worst in her and enable her almost commit murder, he hasn’t really done anything to counteract her fears of him.
I think of idealists being active in trying to change the world--I'm using the word in the way I took Iroh to be using it, to refer to a leader, as opposed to just somebody who likes to see the good in things. Aang seems more about live and let live and seeing the best in people--sometimes his optimism is more about avoiding necessary action. Zuko to me seems more like an idealist in that he wants to actively change things to make them better. Maybe I'm just using the word differently, but Zuko's line to Aang doesn't necessarily make him seem less of an idealist to me. I guess I think of that attitude being the thing that would push him to shape the world into the way he thought it should be.
OK, I’m interpreting idealism in the extreme sense: someone whose beliefs border on romanticism, on impracticability, on unreality. Aang’s own ideas of changing the world are - at the surface and even now to most people - very unrealistic: fight a war without killing anyone? Not take out the most dangerous man in the world even when he’s actively trying to destroy you?
But actually, none of the Gaang members could really be cynics - all of them do believe they can change the world. (Except maybe Toph, who when given the choice in Ba Sing Se, would have preferred to flee rather than try to face the King). Zuko’s own decision to stand against his father because of the invasion into the Earth Kingdom (and how I love the writers for letting us know the turning point and that it was something like that that made him turn - not love for Iroh, not guilt, but the principles he’s always had all along, the same principles that caused him to be banished in the first place) is idealistic. However, what separates Aang from the rest, is the “do whatever it takes” attitude that they lack.
Maybe I'm just using the word differently, but Zuko's line to Aang doesn't necessarily make him seem less of an idealist to me. I guess I think of that attitude being the thing that would push him to shape the world into the way he thought it should be.
I think in the end, that they are going to ply their different strengths to change the world together. One thing I maintain about the finale is that we’re not told unequivocally that what Aang did was right or wrong or even more merciful or not. What was more important was that Aang fulfilled his destiny on his own terms, and in the same way that Zuko, banished Crown Prince, also fulfilled his destiny on his own terms. That, to me, was the lesson to take from that.
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I meant a scene where Katara had the guy and didn't want to do violence to him and Zuko pushed her. Zuko wants to present the guy to her. That was what he said he could do--he could give her the guy who killed her mother. So when it's not the guy, Zuko's failed. Katara walks away not because she's not just as eager to get revenge than ever, she just thinks Zuko was wrong in thinking he could get the guy. So Zuko sees his own goal slipping away and says if you're not the guy, who is?
He's totally enabling her, of course, the same way he was when he first brought it up. But he's not pushing her to do violence to the guy, it's just important to him that he give her the guy. When she pulls back from actually killing him Zuko isn't disappointed or angry at that choice. But he can't let it go at the idea that it's impossible to find the guy at all.
I just wish I knew why she forgave Zuko, since other than bring out the worst in her and enable her almost commit murder, he hasn’t really done anything to counteract her fears of him.
I think in the writers' eyes she doesn't have fears about him that haven't been already counteracted by his behavior since he joined the group. It looks more like she was most suspicious of him, but that over time he hasn't given her reason to think she was right about those suspicions. Only instead of that making her feel better, it just disappointed her that he wasn't going away and giving her good reason to kick his arse out of there. I would guess that's why her attitude is most obvious when Zuko has just proven himself fighting Azula.
OK, I’m interpreting idealism in the extreme sense: someone whose beliefs border on romanticism, on impracticability, on unreality.
Yes, once you said it I saw that would totally fit Aang. It's probably not the right word for me to use to describe the difference between Aang and the other two. Maybe it's more that justice is more important to them. Aang is just, of course, but justice as a concept doesn't seem as important to him as it is to the other two. He's more likely to say "the poor will always be with us" where Katara is more like "It's not fair that some people should go without when others have more than enough."
not love for Iroh, not guilt, but the principles he’s always had all along, the same principles that caused him to be banished in the first place
Just had to agree with this. It can't be that Zuko turns because he wants to make Iroh happy or whatever. He has to realize something about right and wrong. Once he does that he won't ever go back. (I thought there was something like this going on with Snape in HP, but he didn't get that kind of turning point.)
One thing I maintain about the finale is that we’re not told unequivocally that what Aang did was right or wrong or even more merciful or not.
Totally agree. It's not like it would just be "wrong" to kill the Fire Lord and this was the "correct" solution.
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