Mary Sue (Yes I am taking a break from schoolwork just to rant about this)

[sisterjune]

Mary SueI hate hate HATE this term. Just about every fandom I have been in has used this term to either discredit and undermine a female character and her numerous accomplishments or skill or to justify their dislike of her. Usually both. Yes there are underwritten, poorly developed female characters on tv. I can understand not liking them or

Comments

[darkeyedwolf]

IMO Mary Sues don't have to be self-inserts. Some people will disagree (there's always an argument on metafandom whether the term can be limited to fanfiction or if it's legitimately applicable to all media) but that's where you get the term "canon Sue." People like Ginny Weasley and Elizabeth Swann -- super-special princesses who aren't necessarily authorial fantasies but who are too smart and amazing and perfect to be anything but a joke.

Me, I've always understood Mary Sue to define how everyone else acts towards a female character. Her inherent beauty/skill/success isn't as important as how the other characters react to it. If all the men love her and all the women are jealous and even her enemies admire her, if she's the center of everyone's world and they discuss among themselves how beautiful and unique and wonderful she is, if she's always right and her suitors are throwing themselves off cliffs just for a whiff of her peach raisin buttermilk sparkle hair, that is when you can slap on the label. You can have a three-faced clown for a heroine, and she can still be a Mary Sue if everyone loves her unconditionally. Bella Swan for example.

Anyway, so when and why did Mary Sue become a term to use for ANY female character fans felt were too pretty/skilled/liked to be acceptable?

BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE DUMB.

This post makes me want to watch more Xena.

sorry for the late reply! I just now finished most of my HW

[sisterjune]

Yeah I dont think Mary Sue's HAVE to be self inserts per se but do have to be idealized, fantasies. The Perfect Woman or something to that degree. I honestly see very few instances of this on television (or film) although I can think of alot of book heroines where that term might actually apply as it should. Bella for example and I agree that should would fit the term Mary Sue to a T. But honestly most of the people I hear called Mary Sue's, just dont. and I dont think Mary Sue as a term works as well in TV media. and reason is in a book, you have ONE author, usually just the one. Some authors are very transparent in how they want you to see or feel about their characters and in how they fulfill their fantasies via their writing. In Tv, there are MANY writers and it's alot harder to come up with these issues that usually are what create Mary Sue's in the first place. Which isnt to say that they NEVER happen but certianly not in the frequency with which people use the word.
Mary Sue to me should be someone without real depth of character or human flaws, someone who is a cipher for the plot or a self insert of the author. Mary Sue should NOT mean, a woman who is really ridiculously competant or pretty or popular with men. Yes the combination of these things can be hard to swallow but if it's tempered with something else or if the character makes sense, as a real person or person in that fictional world, then Mary Sue should NOT apply! No matter how much a fangirl or boy doesnt like her. and that's my beef. Mary Sue just doesnt even really make sense 90% of the time I hear it used now adays. Which isnt to say that no one ever uses it correctly but most people just dont. and I feel like that word has entirely lost it's meaning now. Or mostly. I mean Kate from Lost could very much apply as a Mary Sue cause she had no real character of her own, she was just whatever the writers wanted her to be, yet was fought over by two very attractive (albeit douchey) men. But I'd be the kind of person to resent the writers for writing her so flatly then say I hate her and she's a Mary Sue. I cant dislike a character that is so completely unreal and two dimensional because in the end I cant see her as a person. Which is what a writers job in a show or book should be.
Anyway I feel like I'm starting to babble but basically it's not like I dont think Mary Sue exist out there, they most certainly do! But I feel like the usage of the word is completely disproportionate to the amount of actual Sue's out there in books, tv and film. and as for Elizabeth Swann. I can see how she's not as likeable or well written as some of the guys but I maintain that she's not a Mary Sue anymore than they are and if she is than SO are they. But just my opinion of course :) I agree about more Xena though!