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Re: Chivalry and the Road to Righteousness - Rebuttal Part 2samaelhainSeptember 16 2004, 23:53:15 UTC
I know of an age when we had them. They where called Knights and the followed a Code of Courtly Love. It was their example of Love to others and the Code of Ennoblement was the Code of Ethics and morality to which they dealt with everyone, even "immoral children".
These lines, "Patience is what I speak of. Patience for our youth who may have been given a warped sense of right and wrong. Patience in your dealings with those who do not share your own sense of ethics.", still leave me with a few questions? What is your definition of ethics? I understand this will be a matter of your opinion, as I am not asking for dictionary definitions. (I already have one, thank you.) Any rebuttal I give will not be for arguments sake. If I question _anything_ it will solely be for clarity. Secondly, to which ethics of Society or the Knightly and Paladin codes do you adhere to?
As an aside , please try to remember, that unlike Man's Law..... Morality and Divine Edict do not change with the whim of Rulers, nor with the conventions of the Society or Republics. These codes of Ethics and Morality are devine and with any transgression we are to be Judged by the One True God. It is when we transgress, that our humility is truly tested. Do we confess to our peers ans superiors our failings and then accept God's forgiveness, vowing to steel ourselves against sin and corruption or do we puff ourselves up upon our pride and cover ourselves the skin's of steel to assume superiority and allow self-righteousness to be our God.
I hope I can see your humility and patience without the condescension to the uninformed that you have demonstrated in earlier posts good Sir Gallahad.
I pray for greater Patience and Humility for all of us, Samaelhain
Re: Chivalry and the Road to Righteousness - Rebuttal Part 2sirgallahadSeptember 20 2004, 07:31:28 UTC
Samaelhain;
My intent towards this conversation has never been to be condescending when responding to your questions or comments, I am simply replying truthfully. If my rebuttals have seemed offensive, or patronizing, I offer my humble apologies. Perhaps I should have clarified a little more when making those blanket statements that I’m prone to do on occasion.
It is true, I am no Knight of old, such traditional codes would not be functional in today’s society without the general public miscomprehending your ways. With new times comes need for tweaking of the old. Base values remain the same, but the practice of these values need slight change as to not become a social misfit. Holding on to a code and practicing your ideals should be subtle, and in order to sell such ethics or morals to the masses, one must be able to present them in a way that will motivate others to follow, rather than look on and mock. This is not to say that I want a following of my own personal ethics, only that people see an example in me and can find their own set of morals that allow them to function as good individuals.
In the traditional sense of the term Paladin, such as those of Charlemagne’s court, or those found in D&D, I agree that I am certainly not one. In the traditional sense of a Knight, given the title by a King or Queen, I am not a Knight. Looking past the medieval version of a Knight, the practical modern definition of a Knight is to be a defender, champion or zealous upholder of a cause or principal.
Perhaps a reflection of my own personal code would help clarify my position.
(1) Respect: Respect the law and the reason for it to be in place. Respect your country and those who came before to build it. Give equal respect to all, regardless of age, sex, race, or religious belief. Respect all points of view, regardless if they differ from your own. Do not disrespect yourself or others by breaking your word. Respect the Lord God and follow the Ten Commandments passed down by him. Be tactful when speaking; respect the feelings of others with your words. Show respect to others in both in speech and deed. Show respect for those less fortunate, and aid them to the best of your ability. Respect others by respecting your own cleanliness and appearance. Respect yourself by retaining your faculties (Alcohol in excess leads to inadvertent disrespect of those present). Respect your partner and those close to you with love, humility, friendship and sacrifice.
(2) Uphold right over wrong: Period.
That is the code I strive to follow. If this code makes me a Gallant to you, then so be it, I would gladly accept the title.
A stable home is, in my opinion, any person or group of people who are able to create a home that provides the following things for their young charges: shelter, food, clothing, love, discipline, patience, and the ability to instill a strong sense of ethics. Regardless if I have children or not, is this sentence not correct? How is it judgmental to express my own personal perspective on the things I have seen and experienced through others?
Having ethics to me is knowing right from wrong and following the golden rule(do unto others as you would have them do unto you).
Who are our official champions of morality and compassion these days? There aren’t many initially evident in the public spotlight, but there are many if you look: Aid workers in third world countries, volunteer firefighters, homeless shelter workers, ambulance attendants, ER doctors, missionaries, and others who stand above the rest. Rather than putting these champions into categories, however, they can come from all walks of life; from those school teachers who still care for the education they are providing their students, to the ones who donate their time towards various youth and community programs, to the idealistic police officer with the belief that he or she is also charged with being the example of the good moral citizen.
I hope this clarifies a few of my previous statements for you Samaelhain, and I pray you may come to understand my point of view.
Yours in respect, always, Sir Gallahad The Hopeless Knight Gallant.
Re: Chivalry and the Road to Righteousness - Rebuttal Part 2samaelhainOctober 16 2004, 13:52:11 UTC
My responses to your points go as such.....
I shall have them be in point form. I start with Paragraph #1.
P1.) It was my hope that you would stop using blanket statements. I accept you apologies.
P2.) I agree that you are not a Knight of Old. I disagree with your opinions of the problems of following the Codes. Why would the opinions of the masses matter in comparison to the value of your service to those in need? Being mocked for doing/being good is par for the course in our world now a days. Why do others opinions of your Faith or Service make you feel that you need to conceal them in a "New Age" packaging? Sorry if I seem overly critical, but to me that's the definition of moral cowardice. And as for being an example, please hold to the truth that your service no matter how you label it _is_ the example, not the words or package that comes with it.
P3.)You have already failed these edicts...... How do you make penance and go out into the world again and try better the next time? Not that we all don't fail mind you........ Also an other query? How do you respect _everyone's_ opinion, even if they are contrary to yours or if they are in opposition to yours? Your Creed more or less puts you into a "catch 22", where you are obligated to allow your detractors and enemies go about preaching their "Gospels of Heresy".
P4.) Please,please.......... _Please_....... give a definition here. This statement is as mutable as clay. What is the "Right" and by who's decree is it defined by? What is "the Wrong" to which I'll assume you are so gallant on charging against. Please some definition here? I don't even know if you're fighting an ethical of moral battle. Is the conflict internal, external, martial or mental? You have stated so little here I can only guess?
P5.)Ok gotta use some cut and paste here, sorry.
Gallahad stated..... "A stable home is, in my opinion, any person or group of people who are able to create a home that provides the following things for their young charges: shelter, food, clothing, love, discipline, patience, and the ability to instill a strong sense of ethics."
..... again, please state, just who's ethics? Yours? or the Parents? how do we judge "good ethics"? By who's standards? Societies? the Church's? Other faiths Creeds? Community standards? Yours?
Gallahad also stated........ "Regardless if I have children or not, is this sentence not correct? How is it judgmental to express my own personal perspective on the things I have seen and experienced through others?"
.... You do realize "personal perspective" is judgmental don't you? Unfortunately, the way in which the above sentences are clearly lacking definition, I can not let myself agree with them, nor can I say that such assessments are correct. I also feel that experiencing anything though others is just a guide to creating/having the experience ourselves. Only after your personal experience and that of others is compared can you really possess any insight to make the decisions necessary to be fair. You may disagree on this opinion, if you choose. I'll take no offense.
P6.) The question was rhetorical.......... And beyond that I asked for the Champions of Morality. What you have listed are "champions" of Humanity. I also disagree with you on the notion of not categorizing these individuals. I'd categorize them all as Heroes and Mentors and as examples of service. They however, are not Paladins or Knights. Knights are much much more...... It is why they are set apart for ALL society to see and know of their works.
Gallahad stated this also..... "Having ethics to me is knowing right from wrong and following the golden rule(do unto others as you would have them do unto you)."
Though this is a nice statement, it is not the defining parameter for ethics. The "Golden Rule" is a Moral code, not ethical. Ethics, my good man are _STANDARDS_ or if you like ,professional rules explaining that which is Right or Wrong in distinct clear limits.
Closing Sentence.) I'm still waiting to find out what your point of view is, as well as you definition of "Paladinhood" or "Knightliness".
I Pray for your efforts and for greater insight to be your beacon in this dark realm.
These lines, "Patience is what I speak of. Patience for our youth who may have been given a warped sense of right and wrong. Patience in your dealings with those who do not share your own sense of ethics.", still leave me with a few questions? What is your definition of ethics? I understand this will be a matter of your opinion, as I am not asking for dictionary definitions. (I already have one, thank you.) Any rebuttal I give will not be for arguments sake. If I question _anything_ it will solely be for clarity. Secondly, to which ethics of Society or the Knightly and Paladin codes do you adhere to?
As an aside , please try to remember, that unlike Man's Law..... Morality and Divine Edict do not change with the whim of Rulers, nor with the conventions of the Society or Republics. These codes of Ethics and Morality are devine and with any transgression we are to be Judged by the One True God. It is when we transgress, that our humility is truly tested. Do we confess to our peers ans superiors our failings and then accept God's forgiveness, vowing to steel ourselves against sin and corruption or do we puff ourselves up upon our pride and cover ourselves the skin's of steel to assume superiority and allow self-righteousness to be our God.
I hope I can see your humility and patience without the condescension to the uninformed that you have demonstrated in earlier posts good Sir Gallahad.
I pray for greater Patience and Humility for all of us,
Samaelhain
Reply
My intent towards this conversation has never been to be condescending when responding to your questions or comments, I am simply replying truthfully. If my rebuttals have seemed offensive, or patronizing, I offer my humble apologies. Perhaps I should have clarified a little more when making those blanket statements that I’m prone to do on occasion.
It is true, I am no Knight of old, such traditional codes would not be functional in today’s society without the general public miscomprehending your ways. With new times comes need for tweaking of the old. Base values remain the same, but the practice of these values need slight change as to not become a social misfit. Holding on to a code and practicing your ideals should be subtle, and in order to sell such ethics or morals to the masses, one must be able to present them in a way that will motivate others to follow, rather than look on and mock. This is not to say that I want a following of my own personal ethics, only that people see an example in me and can find their own set of morals that allow them to function as good individuals.
In the traditional sense of the term Paladin, such as those of Charlemagne’s court, or those found in D&D, I agree that I am certainly not one. In the traditional sense of a Knight, given the title by a King or Queen, I am not a Knight. Looking past the medieval version of a Knight, the practical modern definition of a Knight is to be a defender, champion or zealous upholder of a cause or principal.
Perhaps a reflection of my own personal code would help clarify my position.
(1) Respect:
Respect the law and the reason for it to be in place.
Respect your country and those who came before to build it.
Give equal respect to all, regardless of age, sex, race, or religious belief.
Respect all points of view, regardless if they differ from your own.
Do not disrespect yourself or others by breaking your word.
Respect the Lord God and follow the Ten Commandments passed down by him.
Be tactful when speaking; respect the feelings of others with your words.
Show respect to others in both in speech and deed.
Show respect for those less fortunate, and aid them to the best of your ability.
Respect others by respecting your own cleanliness and appearance.
Respect yourself by retaining your faculties (Alcohol in excess leads to inadvertent disrespect of those present).
Respect your partner and those close to you with love, humility, friendship and sacrifice.
(2) Uphold right over wrong:
Period.
That is the code I strive to follow. If this code makes me a Gallant to you, then so be it, I would gladly accept the title.
A stable home is, in my opinion, any person or group of people who are able to create a home that provides the following things for their young charges: shelter, food, clothing, love, discipline, patience, and the ability to instill a strong sense of ethics. Regardless if I have children or not, is this sentence not correct? How is it judgmental to express my own personal perspective on the things I have seen and experienced through others?
Having ethics to me is knowing right from wrong and following the golden rule(do unto others as you would have them do unto you).
Who are our official champions of morality and compassion these days? There aren’t many initially evident in the public spotlight, but there are many if you look: Aid workers in third world countries, volunteer firefighters, homeless shelter workers, ambulance attendants, ER doctors, missionaries, and others who stand above the rest. Rather than putting these champions into categories, however, they can come from all walks of life; from those school teachers who still care for the education they are providing their students, to the ones who donate their time towards various youth and community programs, to the idealistic police officer with the belief that he or she is also charged with being the example of the good moral citizen.
I hope this clarifies a few of my previous statements for you Samaelhain, and I pray you may come to understand my point of view.
Yours in respect, always,
Sir Gallahad
The Hopeless Knight
Gallant.
Reply
I shall have them be in point form.
I start with Paragraph #1.
P1.) It was my hope that you would stop using blanket statements. I accept you apologies.
P2.) I agree that you are not a Knight of Old. I disagree with your opinions of the problems of following the Codes. Why would the opinions of the masses matter in comparison to the value of your service to those in need? Being mocked for doing/being good is par for the course in our world now a days. Why do others opinions of your Faith or Service make you feel that you need to conceal them in a "New Age" packaging? Sorry if I seem overly critical, but to me that's the definition of moral cowardice. And as for being an example, please hold to the truth that your service no matter how you label it _is_ the example, not the words or package that comes with it.
P3.)You have already failed these edicts......
How do you make penance and go out into the world again and try better the next time? Not that we all don't fail mind you........
Also an other query? How do you respect _everyone's_ opinion, even if they are contrary to yours or if they are in opposition to yours? Your Creed more or less puts you into a "catch 22", where you are obligated to allow your detractors and enemies go about preaching their "Gospels of Heresy".
P4.) Please,please.......... _Please_....... give a definition here. This statement is as mutable as clay. What is the "Right" and by who's decree is it defined by? What is "the Wrong" to which I'll assume you are so gallant on charging against. Please some definition here? I don't even know if you're fighting an ethical of moral battle. Is the conflict internal, external, martial or mental? You have stated so little here I can only guess?
P5.)Ok gotta use some cut and paste here, sorry.
Gallahad stated.....
"A stable home is, in my opinion, any person or group of people who are able to create a home that provides the following things for their young charges: shelter, food, clothing, love, discipline, patience, and the ability to instill a strong sense of ethics."
..... again, please state, just who's ethics? Yours? or the Parents? how do we judge "good ethics"? By who's standards? Societies? the Church's? Other faiths Creeds? Community standards? Yours?
Gallahad also stated........
"Regardless if I have children or not, is this sentence not correct? How is it judgmental to express my own personal perspective on the things I have seen and experienced through others?"
.... You do realize "personal perspective" is judgmental don't you? Unfortunately, the way in which the above sentences are clearly lacking definition, I can not let myself agree with them, nor can I say that such assessments are correct. I also feel that experiencing anything though others is just a guide to creating/having the experience ourselves. Only after your personal experience and that of others is compared can you really possess any insight to make the decisions necessary to be fair. You may disagree on this opinion, if you choose. I'll take no offense.
P6.) The question was rhetorical..........
And beyond that I asked for the Champions of Morality. What you have listed are "champions" of Humanity.
I also disagree with you on the notion of not categorizing these individuals. I'd categorize them all as Heroes and Mentors and as examples of service. They however, are not Paladins or Knights. Knights are much much more...... It is why they are set apart for ALL society to see and know of their works.
Gallahad stated this also.....
"Having ethics to me is knowing right from wrong and following the golden rule(do unto others as you would have them do unto you)."
Though this is a nice statement, it is not the defining parameter for ethics. The "Golden Rule" is a Moral code, not ethical. Ethics, my good man are _STANDARDS_ or if you like ,professional rules explaining that which is Right or Wrong in distinct clear limits.
Closing Sentence.)
I'm still waiting to find out what your point of view is, as well as you definition of "Paladinhood" or "Knightliness".
I Pray for your efforts and for greater insight to be your beacon in this dark realm.
Samaelhain.
Reply
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