On Training, Weightlifting, Feminism, and Stuff

[silk_noir]

This is going to be a long and rambling post, so hold on.

I met baronalejandro at Lilies War and we hit it off reasonably well. As most of us do, we connected later on LJ. On one particular post about fighting over at my SCA blog (baronnemelisend if you wanna see), he replied something to the effect of "If I can help, let me know."

One of the benefits of reaching my age is

Comments

[evil_fionn]

You know... interesting side note but related:
I don't have a problem with women and weights, but I saw a picture today of Madonna that just had me, well, grossed out.
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/06_03/MadonnaDM2606_468x737.jpg

Okay, truth is, I never found Madonna that appealing anyway (except maybe during the "Vogue" days, but I have a soft spot for period fashion).
I guess the difference is that the women you posted seem to have muscle and HEFT behind them... whereas, in my opinion, M. just looks dessicated. Stringy, even.
I think it's a matter of "What fits your body type best?"
Me, I don't know. Sometimes I think it would be cool, sometimes I think I'd look like a freak.

[tedeisenstein]

The one quote I can remember from Guy Ritchie, her ex, was something he said about "Having sex with her was like [bleeping] tendons and gristle"....

As for the original post, How could I not want to look like these women?
You shouldn't look like them. You should look like yourself. Well-muscled, fit, in good shape - but like yourself. Why would anyone want to look like that, when they could be a buff versions of themselves?

...but, then, I've always been of the persuasion that people should look normal. Not maxed out on steroids and 10-hour days of lifting weights; nor maxed out on food! food! food!; nor in the throes of serious addiction. Just normal is beautiful enough. Life needs balance, and the most beautiful people are those who have that balance.

[noveldevice]

I think if she wants to look like these women, she should do it. :)

[silk_noir]

See, that's what I'm talking about. Never mind that Madonna is a woman of incredible energy and business savvy. (Fan or not, I thik we can agree on this.) Nope, all her ex could say was that he didn't like her in the sack. Gah.

[noveldevice]

Didn't you know it's your job to look like what other people find sexy? (I'm smiling so I don't bang my head on the desk...)

[silk_noir]

Girrrrrrrllll....

[tedeisenstein]

That was not all he could say about her; it was the quote that stuck with me. I'm sure if you track down the stories, both of them will have a multitude of reasons for the failure of the marriage. (read: don't take one quote to be the whole argument.)

...and in any case, incompatible sex has been a primary reason for divorces for quite a while - "refusal to grant conjugal visits", "the marriage was never consummated", and the like. Sex is, after all, one of the primary reasons people would get married, because marriage was considered to be the only valid reason to have sex.

Yeah, she has energy and savvy. So does any graduate of a good business school or law school. But for a marriage to be successful, there has to be other reasons to hang out with one particular person, and good sex is one (I repeat, just one) of the more important ones. Why marry someone you wouldn't want to be intimate with?

[noveldevice]

I kind of think you're missing her point.

[orbitalmechanic]

In light of this post, and without meaning to be personal, I'm really struck that this *is* the quote that stuck with you--and that seemed relevant to Marguerite's post. Muscle sure ain't tendon and gristle. I wonder why it's so easy--again, not meaning to be personal, I think there's a lot going on here for a lot of people--to jump from bodybuilding to "ew, a woman who's too skinny is gross."

[tedeisenstein]

I didn't take it personally; I'm finding this whole discussion to be thoroughly interesting and a bit fun, too. Lord knows even I need to have assumptions challenged

[orbitalmechanic]

See, this is so interesting to me--what an amazing range of body types we can interpret as "overmuscled." That picture of Madonna doesn't look strong or athletic or muscled to me at all, it looks wasted, even ill, the opposite of those bodybuilders. I wonder if, culturally, part of this issue is that we expect men to lift weights in order to bulk up, and women to lift weights in order to slim down? So we all kind of measure of that, no matter how much we think it's dumb. I just can't imagine looking at the bodybuilders silk_noir talks about and saying "tendon and gristle." Even though I don't personally like that look!

(I'm reminded of a class I taught once, where I asked my students to write definitions of the stereotypes of mothers and fathers--each one wrote a note at the top of the page saying "I don't agree with any of this!" but they all wrote exactly the same definitions. That's going to have an effect, however hard we try to turn away from it.)

[tedeisenstein]

Not everyone gets traditionally overmuscled (if there is such a thing); a fair number will get that edged, chiseled, sharp look (as with the women in the photos in the original posting), and some get, well, the Madonna Look. Same cause, different results. Dunno what other words to describe the variations, though.

I am not entirely convinced that all women lift weights to slim down, nor men to bulk up. Back when I was still going to the gym, I was lifting weights to tone myself up - lose a bit of weight and several inches, get into better shape, and get a bit more muscular without adding bulk. I have heard anecdotal evidence that some women lift to add a bit of bulk...but, yeah, I could be easily persuaded that what you say could indeed be the Cultural Consensus, even though there's wide individual variation.

Madonna was tendon-and-gristle'd through too much body building. The photos silk_noir posted weren't - but they were still overly, errr, body-built. In both cases, my own, personal tastes run towards "they've gone over the edge", but,

[evil_fionn]

I've always thought that hands show the first signs of aging.

[silk_noir]

Honestly, I think Madonna is looking pretty good for her age, although yeah, maybe a sandwich or something.... The hands are what really disturb me.