I don't think there's an issue with the words you're putting OUT there, generally speaking. I think there is sometimes a perception, as in the present case, that the words someone else is using might not be getting IN. You may not actually be too focused on making your own argument to hear what specifically another person is saying, but it might be helpful (not "nice") and conducive to more discussion if you made that clearer. That's not "kumbaya"--that's self-interest. You can't "educate" -- or to be fair, let's say persuade --someone whose role in the exchange is reduced to being explained at.
It's not always the content or perceived lack of courtesy that's alienating in these kinds of conversations. It's the fact in our drive to ensure respect for the voice of a group or class of people, we easily fall into denying voice to specific individuals who fall (in our perception) outside that group. Is it any wonder people feel defensive and inclined to withdraw in that situation? It's not exactly losing sight of the trees because we're addressing the whole forest--more like focusing on a farther horizon and failing to see or acknowledge what's five feet away. I see so much frustration on all sides that simply comes from not feeling heard.
(Edit: Maybe it's both the forest and the horizon. Yeah, it's both.)
Thing the 1st: it's clear from context clues that you know me from elsewhere. I do not associate your handle with someone specific. If I know you elsewhere, who are you?
2: it's clear from context clues that you're talking about a specific interaction. I'm generalizing about a multitude. Can you clarify for me which you mean? And if so, how you feel that I didn't understand what someone else was saying or was only focusing on "explaining at" someone rather than answering their points? I can't really address this comment until we're on the same page. Please be specific.
This is Suzana. Given the same-minute timing I assumed you were writing about the thread on Biz that went south just a little while ago, in which both the behavior you wrote about and the behavior I wrote about were exhibited. I'll be happy to remove this comment from here and post it over there. It's applicable to a genuine and sincere "we," not just you.
With regards to "education," I was talking about specific terms. Specific terms that have specific meanings. And without all being on the same page about those meanings, all we as a community will ever do is talk past one another. As you can see, in that thread, the biggie was "privilege."
I understood very clearly what Summer was saying. I also understood that she was not grasping what I and several other people were saying. Not that she had a different view-- but that she was actually misrepresenting the points we were making. Telling her that was not reducing her to being explained at. It was very factually saying that "until we are talking about the same thing, we'll only ever talk past one another." That, imo, is very different from not understanding her because I was focused on my own points.
The kumbaya thing wasn't about this so much as other interactions, which is why I suspect your comment may be confusing to those on the Biz thread.
It's not always the content or perceived lack of courtesy that's alienating in these kinds of conversations. It's the fact in our drive to ensure respect for the voice of a group or class of people, we easily fall into denying voice to specific individuals who fall (in our perception) outside that group.
Can you clarify what you mean by this and how you feel it applies to me? Are you implying that I was trying to or was in practice denying a voice to someone by countering their argument? I am very confused.
I didn't get any clue from what you wrote that you understood or acknowledged what Summer was saying. And she wasn't failing to understand you--she was disagreeing with what you and others appeared to assume about her, including that she didn't understand, and feeling very much offended by it. Of course you were going to talk past each other.
For the record, I don't know Summer other than from FB, and as far as the politics of the thing go, I'm very much on your side. I look at language. I analyze it for a living, in fact. And in this case, this is what I see.
I wanted to take a sec to piece together the convo so that we have the same reference and so does anyone else. Unfortunately, Summer went and deleted two of her comments, so those are blank spaces. It took me a sec, but I removed identifying info from people who are not-me.
Eta: photobucket is being unhelpful. Hopefully this is clearer.
IDK, I think it's clear by my, M's, and A's responses that we understood Sunny, but that we were all not using the same definition of "privilege" and thus she was talking past us. Nobody assumed anything about her as an individual at any point in the conversation. We were just saying that class privilege and race privilege are different.
And to say that she didn't understand that-- or, I suppose I should say, that her words suggested to three of us that she hadn't understood that-- doesn't seem like a negative thing, but rather a pretty valid observation.
I also SUPER don't get where anyone was misrepresenting her, because we hadn't said anything about her other than she seemed to be conflating two types of privilege.
What was weird to me is that she labeled us "middle class white feminists" who were trying to "speak for her" when a) nobody was speaking for her, and b) one of us had repeatedly said she wasn't white, and none of us mentioned our economic class. So, strictly speaking-- she was the one making assumptions.
I hope you've joined the academic group. As I said, that's a good place to find people who are fluent in the language you want to use and happy to discuss and debate on that level. For a lot of us, I don't think an open thread in Biz is ever going to scratch that itch, so it's code-switch or be forever frustrated.
It's not always the content or perceived lack of courtesy that's alienating in these kinds of conversations. It's the fact in our drive to ensure respect for the voice of a group or class of people, we easily fall into denying voice to specific individuals who fall (in our perception) outside that group. Is it any wonder people feel defensive and inclined to withdraw in that situation? It's not exactly losing sight of the trees because we're addressing the whole forest--more like focusing on a farther horizon and failing to see or acknowledge what's five feet away. I see so much frustration on all sides that simply comes from not feeling heard.
(Edit: Maybe it's both the forest and the horizon. Yeah, it's both.)
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2: it's clear from context clues that you're talking about a specific interaction. I'm generalizing about a multitude. Can you clarify for me which you mean? And if so, how you feel that I didn't understand what someone else was saying or was only focusing on "explaining at" someone rather than answering their points? I can't really address this comment until we're on the same page. Please be specific.
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With regards to "education," I was talking about specific terms. Specific terms that have specific meanings. And without all being on the same page about those meanings, all we as a community will ever do is talk past one another. As you can see, in that thread, the biggie was "privilege."
I understood very clearly what Summer was saying. I also understood that she was not grasping what I and several other people were saying. Not that she had a different view-- but that she was actually misrepresenting the points we were making. Telling her that was not reducing her to being explained at. It was very factually saying that "until we are talking about the same thing, we'll only ever talk past one another." That, imo, is very different from not understanding her because I was focused on my own points.
The kumbaya thing wasn't about this so much as other interactions, which is why I suspect your comment may be confusing to those on the Biz thread.
It's not always the content or perceived lack of courtesy that's alienating in these kinds of conversations. It's the fact in our drive to ensure respect for the voice of a group or class of people, we easily fall into denying voice to specific individuals who fall (in our perception) outside that group.
Can you clarify what you mean by this and how you feel it applies to me? Are you implying that I was trying to or was in practice denying a voice to someone by countering their argument? I am very confused.
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For the record, I don't know Summer other than from FB, and as far as the politics of the thing go, I'm very much on your side. I look at language. I analyze it for a living, in fact. And in this case, this is what I see.
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Eta: photobucket is being unhelpful. Hopefully this is clearer.
IDK, I think it's clear by my, M's, and A's responses that we understood Sunny, but that we were all not using the same definition of "privilege" and thus she was talking past us. Nobody assumed anything about her as an individual at any point in the conversation. We were just saying that class privilege and race privilege are different.
And to say that she didn't understand that-- or, I suppose I should say, that her words suggested to three of us that she hadn't understood that-- doesn't seem like a negative thing, but rather a pretty valid observation.
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What was weird to me is that she labeled us "middle class white feminists" who were trying to "speak for her" when a) nobody was speaking for her, and b) one of us had repeatedly said she wasn't white, and none of us mentioned our economic class. So, strictly speaking-- she was the one making assumptions.
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