Not does God exist, but can it be reasonable to believe in Him?

[shoei_mike]

To start with, there was this, which topic drifted into discussion on faith. Having said I used to be atheist and am now Christian, a friend from back in the atheist days, who has made the opposite conversion said "Christian -> atheist I can understand. The other direction baffles me.". So I promised to say something about it on my LJ tonight

Comments

[hungrymama]

There are at least a couple of problems with Pascals wager. One is, like you said, any God worth worshiping should be able to figure out when you're putting him/her on. The other problem is that it assumes a simple choice between God and Not God which all falls apart in the presence of multiple religions or even denominations - if you pick Christ and it turns out Krishna is the man then you may be doubly screwed.

Every adult convert I have talked to seems to have had an experience that brought them to faith. A time when God revealed himself or a moment of clarity or some kind of sign. That's where I suspect something in the way some people's brains are wired that allows them to have these kinds of experiences fairly readily while others do not.

[muerk]

I didn't have a moment of clarity per se, however I have had them since. What's most interesting is in my conversation with the enclosed contemplative nuns at the Carmeltie monastery is that I can see God's presence in my life by looking back at how things have changed.

I have experienced God but there is _no_ way that via conversations I could ever convince atheists that it was so. It really has been an interesting shift in worldview and if I had done it earlier (ie, before marrying Shoei) I would likely be an enclosed nun by now.

[kai_loi]

The thing is you could have attributed that "feeling of calrity" and change in your life to anything. Hormones, serotonin, hange in diet, additional/less sleep, giving birth and the associated hormonal changes.

As for "seeing gods presence" Couldn't that be equally attributed to any invisible non-detectable agency. "I have had my life changed by Buddha, or Islam, or wicca, or crystal chakra alignment".

Why attribute it to one of a million other possible imaginary causes.

Humans are really good at detecting patterns. If you look in your life you'll always find a pattern if you want to. That doesn't make it an actual pattern, just a perceived one.

[muerk]

Spiritual discernment is a big issue and I have to say that you are right when it comes to questioning these matters.

As part of being involved with the Discalced Carmelite Order we have priests who we can discuss these very issues with (minus other religious contexts since it's a given as we are Catholics). One of the thing that we are taught to look for is long term changes in ourselves, such as perseverance in prayer or regular reconciliation. It's acknowledged that feelings are transitory and often bad indicators of long term spiritual growth, our actions are far better at showing us what we really are.

[kai_loi]

Then why involve religion at all? Why not keep a chart of say "donations to charity over time" or "time spent at the RSPCA helping animals". And challange yourself to increase frequency and depth of these acts over time. Do people really need a cosmic father patting them on the head saying "good job" in order to actually do good works?

Also looking for long term change such as "perseverance in prayer or regular reconciliation" assumes that either of these things are beneficial or positive in any way shape or form. As opposed to a waste of time that could be taken up with, say, actually helping people or being involved in the community in a positive manner.

One of these two things is inwards facing and self indulgent (i.e makes you feel better about yourself with no benefit to others) and the other is beneficial to others _and_ makes you feel better about yourself as a side effect. Which of these two things is more virtuous (if there is such a thing) one has to ask?

[muerk]

You've been reading Dan Dennett - lol.

I didn't get Baptised because I wanted to become a better person or do good works... I fell in love with God and I couldn't stay away.

If I do good works then that comes out of the wellspring of my prayer and God's grace but that's the side effect of my love for Jesus Christ and His eternal love and mercy for me and everyone else. If you see my love for God as self-indulgent then I don't think I can convince you otherwise.

[kai_loi]

And if you really internally believe that there is a great Santa Clause in the sky, I guess there is nothing I can do to show the wastefulness of time spent contemplating such things. So we are at a stalemate.

[muerk]

Not a stalemate... a respectful understanding of our difference.

[kai_loi]

I chose the word stalemate due to the fact that I do not respect the position of religiosity.

Understand the difference, yes.

Respect it, no.

[muerk]

Well I hope you respect my freedom to believe in and worship my God.

[shoei_mike]

Yeah, Pascal was limited to Christ vs nothing. The last part of my reply to

[kai_loi]

As stated in other posts. The human brain is remarkably set up to see patterns. And when we are predisposed to detect a pattern we will see it when we want. Look at the bible code people. They assemble mountains of Data supporting their claims of hidden patterns in the bible. Any credible mathematician will debunk these "equations" in moments. But it doesn't stop these people seeing the "pattern" Because our brain is set up to be responsive to that.

If I was given an unwanted blessing from a priest and then Narrowly avoided being hit by a car the next day. I could either attribute that to the blessing from the priest or the fact that I took a few extra seconds than normal that morning to brush my teeth. Does that mean god extended my teeth brushing event or that it was just something that fits within the standard deviation of my tooth brushing excersise every day?

Option two is the only rational assumption. The previous is just adding complexity to a simple situation for now reason.

[shoei_mike]

This was a reply to hungrymama about the nature of conversion experiences, not a rationally convincing argument.

Yes... people seeing Our Lady in potato chips, water stains, etc. I know about the human brain as a patten matcher, and you could've also said something about that psychological effect where people better remember the events that support their conclusion.

Though, if I want to play the contrary philosopher game, I could say that your argument boils down to "The brain will see patterns where they are not. Therefore any pattern identified that would add complexity to a simple situation must be treated as illusory."

[kai_loi]

To which my reply would be... not illusionary but "suspect".

Which is the way an intelligent person should approach all evidence. With suspicion and the willingness to look at it critically.

[muerk]

I agree wholeheartedly with you here.