Not does God exist, but can it be reasonable to believe in Him?

[shoei_mike]

To start with, there was this, which topic drifted into discussion on faith. Having said I used to be atheist and am now Christian, a friend from back in the atheist days, who has made the opposite conversion said "Christian -> atheist I can understand. The other direction baffles me.". So I promised to say something about it on my LJ tonight

Comments

[badasstronaut]

I think to have a willingness to believe in, and submit to, an entity I'd have to have some sense of what that entity is. I have no sense of that, so it seems irrelevant. I suppose someone could argue that I should go looking for whatever it is to learn about the entity, but there's no essential starting point. I might as well go looking for any number of things that might want something from me I have no sense of or motivation to find.

I think I can follow your thread there. Presumably you must begin with some motivation to find a god, and in your experience your efforts have been rewarded by faith - or is it less simple than that?

[shoei_mike]

Something like that. Having worked out that If God of the form I was considering existed, then He would be the ultimate good, and inescapable. Before believing, I knew if there was a God of the Christian kind, there'd be no point fighting against him. Part of the process was realising that completely aside from any other arguments, I didn't want there to be a God of the Christian kind.

Of course I worked out that I knew nothing about the business of running a universe while balancing man's free will with possibility of his salvation. i.e. I realised that if there were a God, it'd be a case of His way being the best way. So my resistance was based on my atheistic view of what would be best for the material-only, soulless world.

I think the examination of what I'd have to do if there were a God was helpful first in realising my own resistance to the idea, and second in accepting faith and the burden of duty that would come with it.

Since muerk was going through the RCIA (becoming a Roman Catholic course) at the time, through

[kai_loi]

This argument basically boils down to. "I have faith because I can see that by gaining faith God was calling me to be faithful. Therefore there is a god

[shoei_mike]

It would be a circular argument... if it were an argument. It was a reflection on my journey. You seem to fail to realise that I'm looking at it from both sides. If anything, my desire was that there not be a God. Having held atheism into adulthood, I had no desire to hand over my moral judgements and life choices (and I still don't get to do that as a Christian). I was at ease with myself, my ultimate

Let me throw out here a disclaimer : as a former athiest, I understand the atheistic viewpoint and would probably have responded as you have. I don't expect there is a rational argument one can give to an atheist to convert them. It's possible that if someone's "near the cusp" between Christian and non-Christian worldviews that this discussion may help. It's also possible that this discussion may help anyone interested in knowing more about shoei_mike. I DO NOT BELIEVE ITS POSSIBLE TO BRING ABOUT A CONVERSION WITH THE FLAMING SWORD OF LOGIC

[kai_loi]

Again you're assuming that I like you "want" to not believe. Like I am having to resist the natural state of belief.

My response to this is that I would love to have the luxury of belief. It must be very relaxing. Keep in mind that I _was_ Roman Catholic.

However given time, evidence and critical thinking I came to understand the flaws in my faith based thinking and came to the much simpler and logical conclusion that there is no god(s). This wasn't an effort of forced disbelief but a natural progression to a rest state of non belief as opposed to the effort of having to create and maintain belief. Which is in my opinion the position that requires effort.

I did read your comments. I guess in more ways than one I am internally lamenting the loss of what I had assumed was one of the saner people I know to high functioning lunacy.

[muerk]

"However given time, evidence and critical thinking I came to understand the flaws in my faith based thinking and came to the much simpler and logical conclusion that there is no god(s)."

Not to mention that you existed in a highly sceptical and critical social group that regarded faith as foolishness. It would be highly probable given human psychology that your position changed to the group's prevailing norm.

[shoei_mike]

LOL. I CAN'T BRAYNE TODDAY, I HAVE THE CHRIST.

I don't see anywhere an assumption that you wanted to not believe.

From you talking about me
This is a circular argument based on hindsight tainted through the desire to believe.

To which, I asserted that I had a desire not to believe. It was a correction of your assumtion of me, not a new assumption of you.

[kai_loi]

I read from your comment an implicit statement since you said "as an atheist" that it was a standard state for atheists to be in. i.e a state of not wanting to believe in the face of all the contrary evidence.

I just wanted to clear up that the standard state for an Atheist would be being in a state of easy non-belief and that the act of believing would be the one that required effort.

However my statement still stands that your reasoning for belief is still circular i.e you did (for some reason, perhaps partner pressure) begin to believe. Then looked back and found rationalisations for that belief that relied on the act of belief itself to prove the validity of the belief.

[muerk]

No. One day he was atheist, then multiple things occured. Then he was not an atheist (neither I might add was he Catholic).

I would love to claim credit for converting my husband but it was not me who did it. It was between him and God alone.

[shoei_mike]

Yes. You're right - it does look like I'm implying that's common to all atheists. Before seriously considering the idea of God, I was in the easy non-belief state, since my exposure was only to the excessively simple concept of God, and the pathetic attempts at proof-based arguments. There was no need to seriously consider God. Non-belief was easy

[jsr]

I'd just like to say that I actually laughed out loud when I read "I CAN'T BRAYNE TODDAY, I HAVE THE CHRIST."

In fact, I'm still giggling occasionally.

That is all.

[kai_loi]

So did I... but for a different reason. :)

[badasstronaut]

I don't believe I have any desire for there to be no god. I suppose, from my point of view which is based on the sum of my experience (physical and cognitive and intuitive and whatever), I can only derive that I personally have no awareness of any gods should they exist. So either they don't exist or they're hiding from me or are eluding me for some reason. I don't consider myself agnostic, and atheist is as close as I can get to a label, but I'm not terribly fond of labels especially awkwardly fitting ones. But I have to say that anything else I have no awareness of I wouldn't generally hold in my head as important possibilities to consider in case my awareness changes. Aside from anything else, the sheer volume of things I have no awareness of wouldn't fit in my head. So really, the relevance of one thing I have no awareness of is very limited.

[shoei_mike]

I had a definite preference for the idea of a non-God world, partly due to a history of incomplete ideas of God. While I think you should believe, 'cause I think He's there, I'd agree that unless He blips on your radar, like you say, you're not going to be motivated to seek Him.