Barbara Gordon (Oracle)/Dick Grayson (Nightwing) (Batman: DC Comics)

[calliopes_pen]

Title: Birds of a Feather
Author: faith_of_borg
E-mail: faith_of_borg@livejournal.com
Fandom: DC Comics
Pairing: Dick Grayson/Barbara Gordon (Oracle/Nightwing)
Spoilers: Up through Nightwing #101.
Notes: Many thanks go out to poisonivory for beta reading this essay, and for her extremely helpful suggestions.

Comments

[liviapenn]

Considering that Devin writes the Dick/Babs love better than just about any other comics writer out there, I'm actually surprised that Dick/Babs fans don't seem to appreciate her take on their relationship.

I could totally understand being upset if Devin wrote them as falling *out* of love with each other, or falling in love with other people... but that didn't happen. The phone messages they leave each other in NW #100 and BoP, was it #76? Just so *heartbreakingly* full of love on *both* sides. *sigh* I'd rather have a story about two mature adults trying and failing to make it work, because of their own issues, than some schmoopy romance novel story where one kiss means "happily ever after" forever.

I mean, so Dick and Babs broke up-- so what? Name a classic het relationship in the DCU that *hasn't* been on the rocks most of the time. Ollie/Dinah, Wally/Linda, even Clark and Lois have their issues now and then. Lovey-dovey no-conflict relationships are *boring*, and a story that ignores the real *issues* that Dick and Babs have with love, independence, relationships and each other... well. Boring *and* not true to the characters, either.

[oracle_watching]

See, I don't think she writes the Dick/Babs love all that well. I think she's prone to throwing in monkey wrenches for the sake of throwing in monkey wrenches, and they don't always feel true to me. The restaurant scene felt very forced to me ... Dick and Babs have fought together since her time in the wheelchair, so I had difficulty believing that he'd suddenly be getting in her way. I didn't buy that Dick was suddenly going on a nostalgic kick, and that he'd keep staying on it even when Babs repeatedly asked him not to. I found Tarantula to be unevenly characterized: not an uneven character, but unevenly developed and portrayed. I had an easier time believing in Dick's attraction to Clancy than to Tarantulas.

(I also don't buy Devin's take on the Nightwing/Huntress relationship, but that's another rant.)

I was also extremely offended by Devin's script for the now-infamous rooftop rape scene. This isn't a case of me finding rape an inappropriate story choice; I happen to think that silence empowers the predators, and I've volunteered for our local domestic abuse/sexual assault center, so I've learned something about cases where men are raped by women. I felt that Devin's original description of that scene read as if it were being written by someone who was indulging in a rape fantasy, which made me extremely uncomfortable.

I find Gail Simone to have done a much better job of portraying the Dick/Babs relationship. YMMV.

As for lovey-dovey no-conflict relationships being boring ... well, speaking as someone who's been extremely happily married for nearly 10 years now, I don't think that's the case. Or if we're speaking strictly of fictional relationships, one of the things the Nightwing player and I have discussed in our prep work for portraying the Dick/Babs relationship has been about facing the issues a couple deals with when they get married. Some of the issues we've addressed include such things as how difficult it is to go from living by yourself for years to suddenly sharing your space with someone else (the fact that it's someone you love very much doesn't automatically make the adjustment stress-free, speaking from personal experience); more specifically, since we're dealing with a crime-fighting couple, we've been addressing Babs' tendency to play "Ms. Fix-It" by proceeding to implement a solution without considering the other party's feelings (see the early stages of Babs' partnership with Dinah, particularly Babs' "I am the word" attitude regarding the Santa Prisca mission), and how the couple struggle with when they are being Babs and Dick, and when they are being Oracle and Nightwing. We're tying up a storyline where Dick had to agree to a plan that he found problematic in Nightwing mode and intolerable in Dick-who-is-married-to-Babs mode. We've had scenes where the two of them have had genuine disagreements over the best way to handle situations--not simply cases where one is right and the other wrong, but where each person is viewing a problem from a different perspective and thus arriving at a solution that is in conflict with the other person's.

Or, as another married person I know has put it, the wedding isn't the end of the story; it's the end of a chapter, and what follows is the really good stuff.

[mike_mccall]

I have to agree that the Watchtower Babs/Dick is an excellent example of a "happy ending" that isn't purely happy, and isn't the end. It is possible to have deep emotional conflict without having a total mess. In fact, after a while, repeated total messes don't seem like "great pairings" anymore -- they seem like codependent messes both people would be better just walking away from.

However, even if you like strong pairings who deal with the adult decision that they can't be together (Ollie/Dinah in Watchtower being a good example, and DC continuity nearly so), the scenes (admittedly few) I have read of Dick/Babs conflict read far more immature than that to me: they read like college freshmen. At one point this would have been perfect for the two of them, but in other ways they are so established as mature (if imperfect) adults that it rings hollow.

[liviapenn]

As for lovey-dovey no-conflict relationships being boring ... well, speaking as someone who's been extremely happily married for nearly 10 years now, I don't think that's the case. Or if we're speaking strictly of fictional relationships

Oh, I'm *totally* speaking of fictional relationships. I see no reason to throw monkey wrenches into *real* relationships for the sake of excitement!

had an easier time believing in Dick's attraction to Clancy than to Tarantulas.

They were two totally different *types* of attraction, though. Dick had an easy, flirty relationship with Clancy and a desperate, issue-laden relationship with Catalina.

(I also don't buy Devin's take on the Nightwing/Huntress relationship, but that's another rant.)

Not to be too aggressive or anything, but by the time you're denying more canon than you are accepting, don't you wonder if it's *your* perception of the character that's off? For better or worse, Devin's had a hand in shaping the character and his major relationships since his Titans days. When you have to go back ten years to find a Dick that you *do* feel is well written, perhaps it's time to accept that the character has evolved beyond who he was as Robin, when his crush on Batgirl was the easiest thing in the world, and the most important thing too.

I was also extremely offended by Devin's script for the now-infamous rooftop rape scene.

Which is interesting, because I don't see why so many people read that *as* a rape scene. You simply can't tell me that Dick was incapable of either verbally or physically preventing sex from happening at that point in time. The phrasing that he *does* use to tell her "Don't" speaks more of his feeling, in that instant, that he's undeserving of comfort or love, that he only deserves to be alone. Was it stupid, inappropriate sex? Sure. Was Dick in a vulnerable spot, emotionally? Of course. Was it rape? Not unless you'd also call it rape if, hypothetically, Dick and Babs had had sex when Dick went to Babs after Haly's burned down. He was in an equally emotional and vulnerable state of mind there, don't you think?

[shadowlongknife]

When you have to go back ten years to find a Dick that you *do* feel is well written,

Chuck Dixon left Nightwing ten years ago?

*headscratch*

Wow...it's only gotten to 100 issues in that amount of time? AMAZING. [/sarcasm]

[liviapenn]

What exactly do you see as the *core* characterization differences between Dixon and Grayson's depictions of Dick?

Not differences in the *plot arc*-- differences in the characterization. Who he is as a person. Seriously, I'd like to know.

[shadowlongknife]

I'd be more than happy to discuss this at length with you somewhere else, so as to not hijack this post any further, and distract from the headsup writing faith_of_borg did.

I'm not denying Devin's contributions to canon, or her ability as a writer. Let me restate, I just don't like some of her choices...that's not a statement on her talent or ability as a writer. I just don't happen to think her specific style and intent is particularly suited to this character.

As far as writers who have dictated and set the canon of this particular character, I'm more inclined to opt for Chuck Dixon and/or Marv Wolfman, who have contributed more to Nightwing, and his supporting cast, than anyone I can think of.

[liviapenn]

On that point we can totally agree, faith_of_borg did a very nice manifesto.

[oracle_watching]

They were two totally different *types* of attraction, though. Dick had an easy, flirty relationship with Clancy and a desperate, issue-laden relationship with Catalina.

I understand they were different. I also found one to be portrayed more plausibly than the other. YMMV.

Not to be too aggressive or anything, but by the time you're denying more canon than you are accepting, don't you wonder if it's *your* perception of the character that's off?

Nope. I'm saying I don't care for how she wrote it. That's not denying canon. That's saying I don't like it. Dixon and McDaniel also didn't care for the Nightwing/Huntress miniseries, as it happens. Looking at the amount of Dixon canon (and Wolfman, since I've read a lot of Titans stuff, and Wolfman is the writer who created the Nightwing persona in the first place) against Devin's canon, I find that I enjoy reading more of Dixon and Wolfman, and even if you exclude Dixon's current short run on the title, he's written Nightwing canon more recently than 10 years ago.

Which is interesting, because I don't see why so many people read that *as* a rape scene. You simply can't tell me that Dick was incapable of either verbally or physically preventing sex from happening at that point in time.

I call it a rape scene because I define rape as "carnal knowledge of a person without his/her consent." I also call it a rape scene because Devin's script for that issue says, "I don't want us to get in trouble, but I also don't want any confusion about what's going on here. Believe it or not, this wildly inappropriate, gratuitous sex (or really rape, to be fair to him) is a plot point." Additionally, she referred to it as a rape in a chat session (which is not a formal interview, but still indicative of how she saw it). So the author herself has called it rape twice, and "nonconsensual" in another interview:

From the chat transcript:

acedrake :Devin, will babs forgive NW his tryst with Tanatula? Or where they on a "Ross Breake" ? Smile

DevinGrayson :Will do, Space Cowboy -- check my website. :-)

DevinGrayson :Ace -- Ross break, lol! Um.,..well, considering he was raped, I think there's a good chance Babs will forgive him.

[liviapenn]

I think if more people could support the view that it's rape by examining *the story itself*, I'd be more inclined to accept that viewpoint. However, I simply don't think the comic, *as printed*, is quite as black and white. I don't think it's IMPOSSIBLE to read it and think, "hey, that might've been rape." But nor do I think that's *clearly* the only plausible reading there could be. Even in real life, situations are often more complicated than simple dichotomies.

As for what Devin said in the script, I'm of the opinion that what the author *meant* may not always be what comes across on the finished page. Word balloons get dropped, editing happens, art may clarify or confuse the text, and things generally just aren't
As for what she might've said in chat, the person who asked the question seems to have been just another person who thinks sex equals love, and therefore Dick's moment of weakness means he loves Barbara less, or something, which I simply *don't find to be true*. Hypothetically, if Devin had answered the question by saying "Well, considering there were questionable consent issues, although it wasn't rape..." would you then ignore your own interpretation of what happened in favor of hers? Or would you take the stance, "well, *I* know what I read, and that was rape, whether Devin says it was or not." I kind of suspect that a lot of people would stick to their guns.

I personally take the second stance-- I don't feel the need to let the author make up my mind *for* me. Once the story exists, it's open to a multitude of interpretations, and what the author says she was trying to do may or may not influence *my* reading. (And I'd especially find this to be true in the case of an author that I didn't think wasa very good writer.) Bill Willingham on Robin, for instance, can talk all he likes about his awesome, exciting choices for the characters, but I don't believe a word of it. Heh.

[oracle_watching]

I personally take the second stance-- I don't feel the need to let the author make up my mind *for* me.

I think it's important to consider the author's intentions in addition to your own perceptions. If, for example, an author says that a given subtext perceived by some readers was not intended by him/her, then I think it's disrespectful to insist that the author must have meant that subtext to be in there.

Perceptions do have a habit of shifting when you get new information, or simply when you've had time to reflect. For instance, you initially said "because I don't see why so many people read that *as* a rape scene," and now you're saying, "I don't think it's IMPOSSIBLE to read it and think, "hey, that might've been rape." But nor do I think that's *clearly* the only plausible reading there could be."

But as I've said a number of times already in this dicussion, YMMV. Before this discussion get to the point where it's the latest feature on Fandom Wank, I'd just like to state once again that there's plenty of room in the DCU sandbox for a variety of opinions and interpretation regarding all the elements of canon: plot, characterization, theme, etc. I think faith_of_borg has done a fine job of showing her interpretation of the Babs/Dick relationship, and she's to be applauded for the work she put into this essay.

[liviapenn]

If, for example, an author says that a given subtext perceived by some readers was not intended by him/her, then I think it's disrespectful to insist that the author must have meant that subtext to be in there.

But someone would only do that (insist that the author *must* have meant a certain thing) if they were the type that believed that an author's intention trumps the reader's interpretation. Which I don't... so I wouldn't do that. I'm talking strictly about interpreting the characters' actions in their fictional world, and ignoring any meta information or appeals to authority.

(Subtext *often* exists unintentionally; to insist that subtext exists doesn't necessarily attribute any intentionality on the author's part.)

Perceptions do have a habit of shifting when you get new information, or simply when you've had time to reflect. For instance, you initially said "because I don't see why so many people read that *as* a rape scene," and now you're saying, "I don't think it's IMPOSSIBLE to read it and think, "hey, that might've been rape."

Let me clarify, just in case you think those two statements are somehow contradictory (because they aren't.)

As I said: I *don't* think it's impossible to read that issue, on its own, and come up with the interpretation, "that's rape." (As you point out, there's many different varieties of interpretations of *all* sorts of elements of canon that could influence one's reading.) However, I still don't see why *so many* people *do* see it that way-- since in my opinion, it is simply not the most obvious interpretation. It's a *possible* interpretation, yes-- it's not like you're saying something completely off-the-wall like "Well, I think that *really* Catalina is secretly a space alien working for Lex Luthor."

So yes, it's a possible interpretation, but IMHO *not* the most plausible one (unless you privilege the author's interpretation of the text) hence my original puzzlement as to why so many people seemed to be interpreting the story in that manner.

[mike_mccall]

fair_witness has been trying to be diplomatic, but you don't seem to get it.

YMMV means YOU DON'T HAVE TO AGREE. Leave it alone.

[mike_mccall]

That would be oracle_watching, sorry.

[liviapenn]

I wasn't aware that one *had* to agree in order to have a discussion; in my experience, usually it's quite the reverse. :)

If oracle_watching wishes to end this discussion, she may indicate that desire either by ignoring my posts, or by saying so directly (as shadowlongknife did in an above thread, which I completely respected.)

However, when I see a post that includes two paragraphs of further discussion of my statements, I don't generally assume that person wishes to *end* the discussion; quite the reverse, wouldn't you say?

When a person continues to attempt to make their point with me, I will continue to make my point with them. It is generally not considered good conversational form to hold the floor, make one's points, and then one-sidedly end the discussion, thus cutting off the possibility of rebuttal; I honestly didn't think that's what oracle_watching was doing, and since I'm not sure how fully you speak *for* her, I'm still not.

To oracle_watching-- please feel free to ignore my previous post if you don't wish to continue the conversation. Alternately, feel free to reply by telling me that you honestly don't wish to continue. However, I feel it's only fair to warn you: any further discussion on your part may lead to further discussion on my part, as I'm generally used to conversations working that way.

[shadowlongknife]

Whoop, I see my name. I'm such a whore for people mentioning my name.

For the record, I restate: I've no problem reopening this conversation someplace else that our differing interpretations aren't distracting from faith_of_borg's fine work. Admittedly, I'm sparse on some details, as I dropped Nightwing from my regular pulls when Devin began unravelling a lot of Chuck Dixon's fine work on the title. You'll definitely have the advantage over me there.

I'll freely admit that it's possible I didn't give Devin's work on the book a completely fair shake, as I was quite a fan of Dixon's run, and have, in the past, dropped many a book during writerly creative switchovers. I'm big on loyalty to creators who really jazz me, and Devin, who I've found to be a perfectly servicable writer on other stories in the past, just wasn't doing it for me as a follow-up to someone I personally consider to be one of the top three defining voices on the Bat-family of books.