An unorganized post on the Celestial Dragons
All I wanna do on my day off is babble about One Piece. SO HERE GOES.
1. It's been clear even before the latest chapters that although the CD are MASSIVE DICKS, not all of them are bad apples: at least one CD had enough awareness/openmindedness to negotiate with Otohime. This is not necessarily an indicator of altruism (negotiations generally mean both parties get something out of it) -- but does at least imply some acknowledgement of parity (if only because of her royal status).
2. They do seem to consider themselves gods. Or at least somehow divinely ordained. (hence the "Saint" title, living in the "Holy Land", among other things.)
I highly doubt this has religious implications. But it does make me wonder about connections to Enel and the random moonpeople subplot, especially considering CDs are styled very much in the mannner of cheesy retro SF. (I wanna say frex the Jetsons but I don't think that's accurate)
(The god thing is more of a non-Western thing -- seems to have to do with the fact that they're descended from the people who essentially created the OP world as it is in the present day.)
3. I have wondered idly if the "Dragon" thing has any significance, but it's really hard to say at this point.
4. about Papa Donquixote: is he a good person? sure. Was he also incredibly naive/weak-willed? TBH yes.
One could argue that he had to have a pretty strong will to go against his society and give up everything he knew just to follow his ideals.
Buuuuut I think Oda makes it pretty clear that this is not the case.
- young Doffy's attitude is a dead giveaway. Yes, it's only natural for a kid to absorb the attitudes of the culture he grows up in. But when you consider that his parents didn't seem to share those attitudes (well obviously the father didn't, we don't know about the mom, but she clearly was not opposed to her husbands ideals either) -- it's kind of suspicious.
I think the implication here is that they were too self-absorbed and/or cowardly to educate their own child properly, or you know, at least offer him a counter to surrounding influences. (See also: Papa Dq's half-hearted/indulgently amused "oh we'd better start from scratch with their educations" after they move out.) It's pretty clear they didn't even explain the move to their kids at all. It was all just a game to them.
(Even disregarding that, Doffy's pretty obviously a spoiled brat, which is another clear indication of flawed parenting.)
- Overall, his idealism manifested in a pretty selfish manner. "I don't want to live this way", as opposed to "I want to change the way things are."
- The mansion. Was that really necessary to live a comfortable, "normal" life? Most normal humans don't live in mansions -- and in fact the area they chose (or that was chosen for them, insert conspiracy theories here) didn't even seem to be particularly well-off.
- Related: they were clearly still expecting to be well-provided for (the money + the mansion), without any giving any thought whatsoever re: how to sustain that lifestyle in the long term.
- He proudly declares "we're all human" without having any true understanding of what it means to be human. Most glaring to me: it doesn't seem like they were even attempting to reach out and befriend any non-CDs or participate in the "normal" community. Their idea of "normalcy" had only gotten so far as rejecting their own society, rather than fully embracing a different one.
- At the first sign of trouble, he tries to take back his decision. (To be fair, he's fundamentally a good man, so his motive here was just to protect his family.) But I think it's notable that chibi!Doffy witnesses this and it's clearly a really formative moment for him. Although it's a completely understandable action for a desperate parent, it's also an undeniable display of lack of conviction/the flaws in his idealism.
- Between him and Otohime? Otohime is far, far stronger. Her idealism was backed with true conviction, even on the verge of death. And I think she's been one of the only characters so far to understand that true change starts with the children. And that the only thing you can control in the end are your own actions.
Hell, even Riku is far stronger. He's got to have lived through ten years of doubt re: his ideals. And yet, in the end, he has still chosen to stick to them. And is prepared to die for them.
(Speaking of which, it's pretty clear to me now why Doffy targeted Riku in particular -- Riku stands for basically everything he's always despised.)
5. Oda's take on nature vs nurture has been especially fascinating to me. Sabo and his brother both grew up in the same environment, with the same advantages (and disadvantages). But Sabo was stifled in that environment, and resisted. His brother... I can't really say embraced it, but had clearly absorbed the attitudes of the adults around him (not CD, but still), and learned to take advantage.
Doffy and Roci now... We haven't seen enough of Roci yet, but Doffy was definitely completely immersed in the CD culture. In fact, his present-day hatred of the CDs seems to arise from their rejection of him, not his rejection of their ideals. He seems to still adhere to a twisted version of their ideals in fact (he's inherently better than everyone else, the weak deserve what they get, the noblesse oblige I've noted before as an especially weird side effect).
I don't think child Doffy was irredeemable, little shit though he may have been. I think if he'd had firmer guidance from the start, if his parents had made more of an effort to really reach out, things would have unfolded differently. Children are really very malleable.
Roci, otoh... he went through exactly the same shit Doffy did (with perhaps the exact same flawed parenting -- though perhaps his base personality was such that this didn't "hurt" him as much as it seems to have fucked Doffy). And arguably it was worse for him, being younger. But maybe it was because he was younger and less influenced by CD culture that he came out of the whole experience less fucked up. Or maybe fucked up in different ways. (All we know, really, is that Roci seemed to have avoided being consumed by hatred the way Doffy was.)
Four different kids, four very different reactions to their privileged origins.
It's an interesting thought experiment to me to wonder how Doffy would have turned out if his father hadn't uprooted their family. Or if the CDs had accepted him back (less likely IMO). He's a fiercely intelligent, independent dude. (Unlike Sabo's brother, who's supposedly also very intelligent but seems to be the kind who goes for the "easy way" out of everything, kid Doffy has a way brasher personality even before tragedy strikes.) Ultimately I don't think he would have been any happier as a CD than Sabo was as a noble.
In the former scenario (no uprooting), he honestly strikes me as the kind of kid who, if everything just comes TOO easily to him, will eventually balk/strike out (iirc he's 8 at the time of uprooting, which leaves plenty of time to get bored with his privilege). And/or the kind of kid who'd eventually wake up to the massive amount of hypocrisy inherent in CD society (and either embrace it to his own advantage or completely reject it). In the second scenario, I think he'd spend his whole life scrabbling to "prove himself" (much as he is now, tbh, just in a very different way) and trying to forget his traumatic experiences, and would eventually feel driven out regardless because the CD would certainly never let him forget. (He's a dude with conqueror's haki, which appears [unlike the other former types of haki] to be innate if not always awakened -- I highly doubt he'd put up with all that bowing and scraping to be accepted for long.)
I can imagine him going in two entirely different directions: aggressively power-hungry and thus unwilling to stay put in Mariejois (i.e. still evil, but with different nuances), or outright rebellion like Sabo. Ironically, I think there's a good chance in some of these scenarios that he'd even have ultimately reached the same conclusion his father did (and been more effective at addressing the issues) -- especially if, as I suspect, he had Roci around serving as a foil/conscience. (Let's face it, some kids are just naturally more empathetic than others. Roci seems very quiet so far, but def higher on the empathy scale. I could be proved wrong in upcoming chapters, of course.)
Either way, Doffy's underlying personality is just way too strong to have ever really settled into typical complacent privileged CDness. Something would have exploded sooner or later, in a good or a bad way.
That's what makes his past especially interesting, I think.
comments at the original Dreamwidth post
1. It's been clear even before the latest chapters that although the CD are MASSIVE DICKS, not all of them are bad apples: at least one CD had enough awareness/openmindedness to negotiate with Otohime. This is not necessarily an indicator of altruism (negotiations generally mean both parties get something out of it) -- but does at least imply some acknowledgement of parity (if only because of her royal status).
2. They do seem to consider themselves gods. Or at least somehow divinely ordained. (hence the "Saint" title, living in the "Holy Land", among other things.)
I highly doubt this has religious implications. But it does make me wonder about connections to Enel and the random moonpeople subplot, especially considering CDs are styled very much in the mannner of cheesy retro SF. (I wanna say frex the Jetsons but I don't think that's accurate)
(The god thing is more of a non-Western thing -- seems to have to do with the fact that they're descended from the people who essentially created the OP world as it is in the present day.)
3. I have wondered idly if the "Dragon" thing has any significance, but it's really hard to say at this point.
4. about Papa Donquixote: is he a good person? sure. Was he also incredibly naive/weak-willed? TBH yes.
One could argue that he had to have a pretty strong will to go against his society and give up everything he knew just to follow his ideals.
Buuuuut I think Oda makes it pretty clear that this is not the case.
- young Doffy's attitude is a dead giveaway. Yes, it's only natural for a kid to absorb the attitudes of the culture he grows up in. But when you consider that his parents didn't seem to share those attitudes (well obviously the father didn't, we don't know about the mom, but she clearly was not opposed to her husbands ideals either) -- it's kind of suspicious.
I think the implication here is that they were too self-absorbed and/or cowardly to educate their own child properly, or you know, at least offer him a counter to surrounding influences. (See also: Papa Dq's half-hearted/indulgently amused "oh we'd better start from scratch with their educations" after they move out.) It's pretty clear they didn't even explain the move to their kids at all. It was all just a game to them.
(Even disregarding that, Doffy's pretty obviously a spoiled brat, which is another clear indication of flawed parenting.)
- Overall, his idealism manifested in a pretty selfish manner. "I don't want to live this way", as opposed to "I want to change the way things are."
- The mansion. Was that really necessary to live a comfortable, "normal" life? Most normal humans don't live in mansions -- and in fact the area they chose (or that was chosen for them, insert conspiracy theories here) didn't even seem to be particularly well-off.
- Related: they were clearly still expecting to be well-provided for (the money + the mansion), without any giving any thought whatsoever re: how to sustain that lifestyle in the long term.
- He proudly declares "we're all human" without having any true understanding of what it means to be human. Most glaring to me: it doesn't seem like they were even attempting to reach out and befriend any non-CDs or participate in the "normal" community. Their idea of "normalcy" had only gotten so far as rejecting their own society, rather than fully embracing a different one.
- At the first sign of trouble, he tries to take back his decision. (To be fair, he's fundamentally a good man, so his motive here was just to protect his family.) But I think it's notable that chibi!Doffy witnesses this and it's clearly a really formative moment for him. Although it's a completely understandable action for a desperate parent, it's also an undeniable display of lack of conviction/the flaws in his idealism.
- Between him and Otohime? Otohime is far, far stronger. Her idealism was backed with true conviction, even on the verge of death. And I think she's been one of the only characters so far to understand that true change starts with the children. And that the only thing you can control in the end are your own actions.
Hell, even Riku is far stronger. He's got to have lived through ten years of doubt re: his ideals. And yet, in the end, he has still chosen to stick to them. And is prepared to die for them.
(Speaking of which, it's pretty clear to me now why Doffy targeted Riku in particular -- Riku stands for basically everything he's always despised.)
5. Oda's take on nature vs nurture has been especially fascinating to me. Sabo and his brother both grew up in the same environment, with the same advantages (and disadvantages). But Sabo was stifled in that environment, and resisted. His brother... I can't really say embraced it, but had clearly absorbed the attitudes of the adults around him (not CD, but still), and learned to take advantage.
Doffy and Roci now... We haven't seen enough of Roci yet, but Doffy was definitely completely immersed in the CD culture. In fact, his present-day hatred of the CDs seems to arise from their rejection of him, not his rejection of their ideals. He seems to still adhere to a twisted version of their ideals in fact (he's inherently better than everyone else, the weak deserve what they get, the noblesse oblige I've noted before as an especially weird side effect).
I don't think child Doffy was irredeemable, little shit though he may have been. I think if he'd had firmer guidance from the start, if his parents had made more of an effort to really reach out, things would have unfolded differently. Children are really very malleable.
Roci, otoh... he went through exactly the same shit Doffy did (with perhaps the exact same flawed parenting -- though perhaps his base personality was such that this didn't "hurt" him as much as it seems to have fucked Doffy). And arguably it was worse for him, being younger. But maybe it was because he was younger and less influenced by CD culture that he came out of the whole experience less fucked up. Or maybe fucked up in different ways. (All we know, really, is that Roci seemed to have avoided being consumed by hatred the way Doffy was.)
Four different kids, four very different reactions to their privileged origins.
It's an interesting thought experiment to me to wonder how Doffy would have turned out if his father hadn't uprooted their family. Or if the CDs had accepted him back (less likely IMO). He's a fiercely intelligent, independent dude. (Unlike Sabo's brother, who's supposedly also very intelligent but seems to be the kind who goes for the "easy way" out of everything, kid Doffy has a way brasher personality even before tragedy strikes.) Ultimately I don't think he would have been any happier as a CD than Sabo was as a noble.
In the former scenario (no uprooting), he honestly strikes me as the kind of kid who, if everything just comes TOO easily to him, will eventually balk/strike out (iirc he's 8 at the time of uprooting, which leaves plenty of time to get bored with his privilege). And/or the kind of kid who'd eventually wake up to the massive amount of hypocrisy inherent in CD society (and either embrace it to his own advantage or completely reject it). In the second scenario, I think he'd spend his whole life scrabbling to "prove himself" (much as he is now, tbh, just in a very different way) and trying to forget his traumatic experiences, and would eventually feel driven out regardless because the CD would certainly never let him forget. (He's a dude with conqueror's haki, which appears [unlike the other former types of haki] to be innate if not always awakened -- I highly doubt he'd put up with all that bowing and scraping to be accepted for long.)
I can imagine him going in two entirely different directions: aggressively power-hungry and thus unwilling to stay put in Mariejois (i.e. still evil, but with different nuances), or outright rebellion like Sabo. Ironically, I think there's a good chance in some of these scenarios that he'd even have ultimately reached the same conclusion his father did (and been more effective at addressing the issues) -- especially if, as I suspect, he had Roci around serving as a foil/conscience. (Let's face it, some kids are just naturally more empathetic than others. Roci seems very quiet so far, but def higher on the empathy scale. I could be proved wrong in upcoming chapters, of course.)
Either way, Doffy's underlying personality is just way too strong to have ever really settled into typical complacent privileged CDness. Something would have exploded sooner or later, in a good or a bad way.
That's what makes his past especially interesting, I think.
comments at the original Dreamwidth post