(no subject)
Had a very headache-y day yesterday and still have eyestrain today so was really only online for long enough to squee over icafreak's transcript.
Haven't managed to answer comments yet (in fact, have only just read them). However, have been thinking about what Joss said, and how some people think it contradicts earlier things he's said about Spike, or that people (especially James Marsters) felt he thought about him.
I don't agree, I think- that there's a contradiction, I mean. I think it's perfectly possible that Joss has always felt this way about Spike - ie. that he liked the character more than Angel because of his subversive nature - and yet that he would still feel at times (as JM feels he does) that Spike was not only subversive as a character because it was his role to be but also subverted at times the stated themes of the show. Both things can be equally true, and can explain why it was that when Joss penned his 'showcase' episodes (like Hush and The Body), Spike's role was minimal or non-existent. It also explains why, in season 8, he's so chairy about using either vampire character (when it's been established that he could if he wanted to). They just don't really fit in the story he wants to tell (which I think is a great pity, but there you go).
To be honest, my main worry in recent times on this issue (trivial fandom-based worry, that is) was that, since Whedonesque is possibly the only fan site Joss looks at regularly, he'd come to the conclusion that a majority of fans disliked Spike, and especially disliked Spuffy, so much so that he'd begun to feel ashamed of that relationship and wanted to pretend it had never happened.
Hey, it's a fan thing. No one said it had to be rational.
Anyway, I feel fairly reassured now that this is not the case, not because Joss said anything positive about Spuffy (he didn't), but because the other positive things he said about Spike were so contrary to what the interviewer was trying to get him to say. As mrs_underhill said in her comment (which I haven't answered yet), the interviewer was going on about Spike being 'cool' and a 'bad boy' and an 'antihero', while Joss was basically saying he thought of him as a good man even when he was bad, and that he actively wanted a soul (yes! :air punches: because I know there are people who still dispute this, and the more writers/creators who stack up to confirm it the better). In other words, Joss 'gets' the Spike I love and isn't that interested in cool, 2-dimensional season 2 evil Spike, except in enjoying the contradictions between that character's badassery and his tenderness as a lover. I also loved what he said about Spike and Angel in season 5, of course.
That, too, was very typically Jossian - in that it suggests (as I think we've always known) that he loves Spike and Angel best when they're being the very opposite of cool, but are in fact more the grumpy old men in my icon). If Joss sees something cool (Evil Spike, Dark Knight Angel) he can't help wanting to bust the balloon of its self-importance. It's no wonder that some of the posters on IDW who like the characters to be cool and serious and able to beat anyone in a fight get all cross about AtS season 5.
I could witter all day, but I don't think my head will stand for it. Would advise anyone to read mrs_underhill's comments both on this post and on sueworld2003's. Very wise, Nata, as always.
Now I'm off to post my Welcome to the Nancy Tribe ficathon story.
ETA: should just say that I love cool, 2-dimensional (not that he ever really was) season 2 evil Spike too. But what I love most about him is that he was allowed to change and grow.
Haven't managed to answer comments yet (in fact, have only just read them). However, have been thinking about what Joss said, and how some people think it contradicts earlier things he's said about Spike, or that people (especially James Marsters) felt he thought about him.
I don't agree, I think- that there's a contradiction, I mean. I think it's perfectly possible that Joss has always felt this way about Spike - ie. that he liked the character more than Angel because of his subversive nature - and yet that he would still feel at times (as JM feels he does) that Spike was not only subversive as a character because it was his role to be but also subverted at times the stated themes of the show. Both things can be equally true, and can explain why it was that when Joss penned his 'showcase' episodes (like Hush and The Body), Spike's role was minimal or non-existent. It also explains why, in season 8, he's so chairy about using either vampire character (when it's been established that he could if he wanted to). They just don't really fit in the story he wants to tell (which I think is a great pity, but there you go).
To be honest, my main worry in recent times on this issue (trivial fandom-based worry, that is) was that, since Whedonesque is possibly the only fan site Joss looks at regularly, he'd come to the conclusion that a majority of fans disliked Spike, and especially disliked Spuffy, so much so that he'd begun to feel ashamed of that relationship and wanted to pretend it had never happened.
Hey, it's a fan thing. No one said it had to be rational.
Anyway, I feel fairly reassured now that this is not the case, not because Joss said anything positive about Spuffy (he didn't), but because the other positive things he said about Spike were so contrary to what the interviewer was trying to get him to say. As mrs_underhill said in her comment (which I haven't answered yet), the interviewer was going on about Spike being 'cool' and a 'bad boy' and an 'antihero', while Joss was basically saying he thought of him as a good man even when he was bad, and that he actively wanted a soul (yes! :air punches: because I know there are people who still dispute this, and the more writers/creators who stack up to confirm it the better). In other words, Joss 'gets' the Spike I love and isn't that interested in cool, 2-dimensional season 2 evil Spike, except in enjoying the contradictions between that character's badassery and his tenderness as a lover. I also loved what he said about Spike and Angel in season 5, of course.
That, too, was very typically Jossian - in that it suggests (as I think we've always known) that he loves Spike and Angel best when they're being the very opposite of cool, but are in fact more the grumpy old men in my icon). If Joss sees something cool (Evil Spike, Dark Knight Angel) he can't help wanting to bust the balloon of its self-importance. It's no wonder that some of the posters on IDW who like the characters to be cool and serious and able to beat anyone in a fight get all cross about AtS season 5.
I could witter all day, but I don't think my head will stand for it. Would advise anyone to read mrs_underhill's comments both on this post and on sueworld2003's. Very wise, Nata, as always.
Now I'm off to post my Welcome to the Nancy Tribe ficathon story.
ETA: should just say that I love cool, 2-dimensional (not that he ever really was) season 2 evil Spike too. But what I love most about him is that he was allowed to change and grow.