These were the words of Downton Abbey’s Mary Crawley in S2 to Matthew’s erstwhile fiancée, Lavinia, when they learned that Matthew’s war injury would prevent him from fathering children or, as Matthew himself so delicately put it, being “properly married.” The CS 2012, an episode that
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Hi! I was actually linked to your post on Twitter!
You have some lovely thoughts here, and I agree with a lot of them. Yet, I don't know if it's because I was so down on Matthew's characterization in s3, but i guess I already see in the show how Fellowes kind of paved the way for s4?
You say that no show has ever survived the killing of a central character/pairing, and while that's true to an extent, I genuinely think the weight of the ensemble counteracts that. I mean, I'm a TV fandom veteran and I've had to deal with shows were my canon pairing was split up or whatever and it does bring the show down, but I think one of the strengths of Downton itself is that perhaps where the show is weak in one area, the dozens of other storylines sort of buoy that? I don't argue that the show may suffer because of Matthew's departure, but I also think that as shippers who were very invested mostly in MM, we sometimes have a kind of tunnel vision about these things. You're absolutely right that the show will have to shift focus a bit, but I think what Fellowes worked so hard to do in s4 was actually preserve Matthew in the show through his newborn child and in how he essentially saved the estate. These are big things, estate-saving things, that wouldn't have happened if he had just died in the war or whatever. In that way, I mean, he's gone, but he's also not gone, and I think that one of Fellowes strengths, if his writing of Sybils' death is any testament, is that he's good at making sure that a character lives on through the others around them.
In some respect, I think the finale was just a shock for everyone, Matthew Crawley dying senselessly on the side of a road. Believe me I take issue with the end because I don't necessarily think it had the most graceful execution, but it was also very abrupt and we have yet to have an actual catharsis of the moment. For me personally, how its handled in s4 will be the make or break of the show, and for some reason I think that Fellowes is prepped to deal with that. The estate is safe, so essentially Matthew's plot function is preserved and it doesn't send the show into a kind of nihilism. I imagine the philosophy of his death will be seen throughout s4, and I don't think it has to be dark at all, rather, it is as Matthew and Mary shared together-- that we have to be grateful for any moment and every moment and never take one another for granted, for we never know when we will lose each other. In some manner, s3 developed a theme of the good and young dying. Maybe in a way that has a dark overtone, but I think Fellowes will see through it. For some reason, the fact that Fellowes has clearly built Matthew's death into s3 tells me he has a plan for s4 and how it will work. If they didn't have a plan, I feel like Fellowes may even have bee reluctant to continue, much less Dockery, who is the actress left hanging in this balance.
The show will simply, in small regards, not necessarily massive ones, have to shift focus a bit. It won't be about Matthew and Mary becoming the estate's future, but maybe about how the women do. It won't be about some kind of eternal mortal love, but about how the eternal love even in death lives on. Maybe I just see Downton as a more versatile show than some, but I think its the first few episodes that will really make or break the direction of the show. And I don't know, maybe for some reason I'm confident it will be okay? I try to see outside of the perspective of just MM, because though they did have some centrality, we still have a massive amount of characters who people do come back to see. And the plot shifts there in could be interesting.
I don't doubt that the show may lose some viewers or the faith of some, but I don't think anything that has happened is necessarily destructive because Fellowes sort of built the recovery in, and I'm interested to see how it goes forward.
Thanks for stopping by. You've made some interesting points:
I already see in the show how Fellowes kind of paved the way for s4
I agree, but I think it's because his hand was forced and I do believe he left open the door for DS to return (and cut the ending) until the very last moment, which probably explains the inelegance of the final sequence (as you note). But your point that Downton has already changed is well taken. In a way, though, it underscores my belief that the shift is major, not minor. To me this episode particularly, and even S3 in general, strikes a very different chord than any episode in either of the previous series. Even with the intensity and sadness of the war, there was humor, there was optimism. I saw almost none of that in S3. ... For example, in 2x05, arguably one of the darker episodes prior to this season, Matthew is injured and Mary knows it, she feels it. And somehow because of the depth of that connection or energy or whatever you want to call it, we all felt like everything was going to be ok. By contrast, in the S3 CS, she's completely oblivious to her husband's fate. And that line she utters in jest to Anna about Matthew waiting his turn because he's already seen the baby, which cuts to the final shot of him hemorrhaging in a ravine, is absolutely chilling. ... S3 was a heavy series. And not heavy as in emotional gravitas; heavy as in oversize baggage or a clunky piece of old furniture.
The estate is safe, so essentially Matthew's plot function is preserved
Well, it is and it isn't. Again, we have the benefit of history so we know what the characters don't (but what JF does) and that is in about 20 years, their son/heir will go off to fight in another world conflict and possibly die. So there's even a shadow cast over this relief that at least Matthew fathered a son before he died. ... Also we know, and JF has stated himself numerous times, that in spite of Matthew's efforts, estates like Downton just aren't going to survive in a way that allows the family and those it employs to remain. (Look at what Highclere has turned into -- a filming location.) It's true that the series will end before we reach this point in time, but it's there in context and subtext.
I do agree that Matthew and the love he and Mary shared will live on through their son. But do you think S4 Mary will be in that place of acceptance? I rather think it's going to be a miserable series for her (if JF does it right; if it's not, then I think something is lacking in the characterization). And ... I just don't think I'm interested in watching her go back to that wretched, brittle place again. Oh, we know MD can act the hell out of it, but I don't want to see a reprise of S2 Mary (but to the tenth power).
You say that no show has ever survived the killing of a central character/pairing, and while that's true to an extent, I genuinely think the weight of the ensemble counteracts that.
I'm not sure I agree. DA is an ensemble piece, but it has a center around which the other characters/storylines orbit and up to this point it's been M/M. And this is true for all successful ensemble pieces, I think. Without a central character/pairing, the story becomes a string of vignettes with no cohesiveness (one of the reasons I generally dislike concepts like Paris, je t'aime and progeny) and I don't think this kind of storytelling is at all workable for a TV series.
I realize that fandom is split into various groups and that M/M shippers comprise only one of them. So our perception of their centrality may be skewed.The thing is, I think casual fans/viewers also see it this way. I think they see Downton as it's told to them -- as JF sees it. I don't know that we really have a metric for looking at this, but if you were to talk to Sunday evening viewers of DA (who aren't on tumblr, who don't write fanfic, etc.), I think you would find that the overwhelming majority are drawn to the M/M storyline and see it as the one most central to DA. I base this on the reactions of friends/family -- all casual viewers -- who know what happens in S3 (TBF, largely because I spoiled them!). ... But this is purely anecdotal, of course, not empirical.
You have some lovely thoughts here, and I agree with a lot of them. Yet, I don't know if it's because I was so down on Matthew's characterization in s3, but i guess I already see in the show how Fellowes kind of paved the way for s4?
You say that no show has ever survived the killing of a central character/pairing, and while that's true to an extent, I genuinely think the weight of the ensemble counteracts that. I mean, I'm a TV fandom veteran and I've had to deal with shows were my canon pairing was split up or whatever and it does bring the show down, but I think one of the strengths of Downton itself is that perhaps where the show is weak in one area, the dozens of other storylines sort of buoy that? I don't argue that the show may suffer because of Matthew's departure, but I also think that as shippers who were very invested mostly in MM, we sometimes have a kind of tunnel vision about these things. You're absolutely right that the show will have to shift focus a bit, but I think what Fellowes worked so hard to do in s4 was actually preserve Matthew in the show through his newborn child and in how he essentially saved the estate. These are big things, estate-saving things, that wouldn't have happened if he had just died in the war or whatever. In that way, I mean, he's gone, but he's also not gone, and I think that one of Fellowes strengths, if his writing of Sybils' death is any testament, is that he's good at making sure that a character lives on through the others around them.
In some respect, I think the finale was just a shock for everyone, Matthew Crawley dying senselessly on the side of a road. Believe me I take issue with the end because I don't necessarily think it had the most graceful execution, but it was also very abrupt and we have yet to have an actual catharsis of the moment. For me personally, how its handled in s4 will be the make or break of the show, and for some reason I think that Fellowes is prepped to deal with that. The estate is safe, so essentially Matthew's plot function is preserved and it doesn't send the show into a kind of nihilism. I imagine the philosophy of his death will be seen throughout s4, and I don't think it has to be dark at all, rather, it is as Matthew and Mary shared together-- that we have to be grateful for any moment and every moment and never take one another for granted, for we never know when we will lose each other. In some manner, s3 developed a theme of the good and young dying. Maybe in a way that has a dark overtone, but I think Fellowes will see through it. For some reason, the fact that Fellowes has clearly built Matthew's death into s3 tells me he has a plan for s4 and how it will work. If they didn't have a plan, I feel like Fellowes may even have bee reluctant to continue, much less Dockery, who is the actress left hanging in this balance.
The show will simply, in small regards, not necessarily massive ones, have to shift focus a bit. It won't be about Matthew and Mary becoming the estate's future, but maybe about how the women do. It won't be about some kind of eternal mortal love, but about how the eternal love even in death lives on. Maybe I just see Downton as a more versatile show than some, but I think its the first few episodes that will really make or break the direction of the show. And I don't know, maybe for some reason I'm confident it will be okay? I try to see outside of the perspective of just MM, because though they did have some centrality, we still have a massive amount of characters who people do come back to see. And the plot shifts there in could be interesting.
I don't doubt that the show may lose some viewers or the faith of some, but I don't think anything that has happened is necessarily destructive because Fellowes sort of built the recovery in, and I'm interested to see how it goes forward.
Thats just my two cents though :)
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I already see in the show how Fellowes kind of paved the way for s4
I agree, but I think it's because his hand was forced and I do believe he left open the door for DS to return (and cut the ending) until the very last moment, which probably explains the inelegance of the final sequence (as you note). But your point that Downton has already changed is well taken. In a way, though, it underscores my belief that the shift is major, not minor. To me this episode particularly, and even S3 in general, strikes a very different chord than any episode in either of the previous series. Even with the intensity and sadness of the war, there was humor, there was optimism. I saw almost none of that in S3. ... For example, in 2x05, arguably one of the darker episodes prior to this season, Matthew is injured and Mary knows it, she feels it. And somehow because of the depth of that connection or energy or whatever you want to call it, we all felt like everything was going to be ok. By contrast, in the S3 CS, she's completely oblivious to her husband's fate. And that line she utters in jest to Anna about Matthew waiting his turn because he's already seen the baby, which cuts to the final shot of him hemorrhaging in a ravine, is absolutely chilling. ... S3 was a heavy series. And not heavy as in emotional gravitas; heavy as in oversize baggage or a clunky piece of old furniture.
The estate is safe, so essentially Matthew's plot function is preserved
Well, it is and it isn't. Again, we have the benefit of history so we know what the characters don't (but what JF does) and that is in about 20 years, their son/heir will go off to fight in another world conflict and possibly die. So there's even a shadow cast over this relief that at least Matthew fathered a son before he died. ... Also we know, and JF has stated himself numerous times, that in spite of Matthew's efforts, estates like Downton just aren't going to survive in a way that allows the family and those it employs to remain. (Look at what Highclere has turned into -- a filming location.) It's true that the series will end before we reach this point in time, but it's there in context and subtext.
I do agree that Matthew and the love he and Mary shared will live on through their son. But do you think S4 Mary will be in that place of acceptance? I rather think it's going to be a miserable series for her (if JF does it right; if it's not, then I think something is lacking in the characterization). And ... I just don't think I'm interested in watching her go back to that wretched, brittle place again. Oh, we know MD can act the hell out of it, but I don't want to see a reprise of S2 Mary (but to the tenth power).
You say that no show has ever survived the killing of a central character/pairing, and while that's true to an extent, I genuinely think the weight of the ensemble counteracts that.
I'm not sure I agree. DA is an ensemble piece, but it has a center around which the other characters/storylines orbit and up to this point it's been M/M. And this is true for all successful ensemble pieces, I think. Without a central character/pairing, the story becomes a string of vignettes with no cohesiveness (one of the reasons I generally dislike concepts like Paris, je t'aime and progeny) and I don't think this kind of storytelling is at all workable for a TV series.
I realize that fandom is split into various groups and that M/M shippers comprise only one of them. So our perception of their centrality may be skewed.The thing is, I think casual fans/viewers also see it this way. I think they see Downton as it's told to them -- as JF sees it. I don't know that we really have a metric for looking at this, but if you were to talk to Sunday evening viewers of DA (who aren't on tumblr, who don't write fanfic, etc.), I think you would find that the overwhelming majority are drawn to the M/M storyline and see it as the one most central to DA. I base this on the reactions of friends/family -- all casual viewers -- who know what happens in S3 (TBF, largely because I spoiled them!). ... But this is purely anecdotal, of course, not empirical.
Thanks again for the input.
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