Canon vs. Fanon, part 8: Daniel, Pacifism, and Weapons Skills

[sg_fignewton]

Welcome to the next edition of Canon vs. Fanon! And hello to all the new people of my f-list. :) Drop a comment, say hi, and join the discussion! Differing opinions are welcomed, too.

As I've mentioned in many of these posts, most fanon affectations are only minor irritations for me, particularly those that can be reasonably extrapolated from canon

Comments

[aurora_novarum]

There's another issue that I think comes into play here. It's first contact

[nomadicwriter]

"Daniel is an idealist, and thus sometimes dangerous."

I totally agree with. I think that Daniel is, in his own way, much more dangerous than any of his teammates... because he's a lot more convinced of his own righteousness.

Jack is certainly ready to attack or kill on less provocation than Daniel, but I also think that Jack is under no illusion that he's objectively a good man or that his actions are The Right Thing To Do. (If anything, I think he has an overly cynical view of himself - although I doubt he has quite the self-esteem crisis a lot of fanfic would have you believe). Jack will do things that he obviously considers to be wrong because he believes that they're also necessary.

That's what fascinates me most about the Jack-Daniel conflict in canon (and what a large number of fanfic writers totally miss when they turn it into this black-and-white thing of: "Daniel is good and right and all things lovely, and Jack is a big old meanie who just Doesn't Understand.") It's not a conflict of ideals. I think Jack and Daniel

[abyssinia4077]

That's a really interesting comparison between Jack and Daniel

[sg_fignewton]

Oh, I like that: Daniel deals with his inner realist, while Jack copes with his inner idealist. But they both have both of them. Yes, that puts it quite neatly.

And Menace! Such a painful ep for Daniel, where he tries to let idealism triumph and discovers that it doesn't always work that way.

Interesting that you suggest it "drove a wall between them," where I saw the two of them as utterly vulnerable in that closing scene, with no walls left, even the ones they needed. Like I said, it really does deserve a long, thoughtful essay. One day... :)

[abyssinia4077]

Interesting that you suggest it "drove a wall between them," where I saw the two of them as utterly vulnerable in that closing scene, with no walls left, even the ones they needed.Maybe it does both

[sg_fignewton]

You've made a lot of good points here, and I'm going to want to think about them, and maybe put them aside for that one-day-maybe essay I'll do on Daniel's character arc in S4-5. I do want to address this, though:

I can't help but wonder why he chose Jack in "Meridian" to interact with the most - if he knew he could convince Jack (I don't see Sam being easy to convince, but I think Teal'c would be easier than Jack

Because Teal'c has the Jaffa/Kheb thing (I'll rant about how that's been ruined some day) and everyone would forever wonder if maybe his understanding of Daniel had been colored by his own perceptions. Because Sam didn't have the authority or - much as I love the Sam and Daniel friendship - the history and closeness that Jack and Daniel share. Most of all, because this is the man who knows what suicide is and isn't, who knows how Daniel feels about it, and who can accept that this is what Daniel needs to do.

Because it's Jack and Daniel, and no harsh words are ever going to destroy that. At least, not in my little

[sg_fignewton]

I followed you home

Awwww. Do I get to keep you? :) Welcome to the party, and thanks for your lovely icons while I'm at it!

I like what you say about Jack and Daniel, and how easy it is for lazier authors to slip into the Daniel=good/Jack=meanie mistake. Especially with your mention of Menace, which deserves a long, loving analysis all of its own. Really, I don't trust the writers enough to believe that they did it deliberately, but Daniel's character arc in the 4th and 5th seasons made it so believable that he was ready to go with Oma.

Daniel loses far less sleep than anyone else on SG-1 over the lives that he's ended.

Oh yeah. Shannon mentions something similar in her post below. He might not much like getting there, but once Daniel reaches that point? The brakes are off, the safety catch is released, and everybody had better duck.

[iamrosalita]

Came here from sg1_debrief and will be friending you, if you don't mind.

He might not much like getting there, but once Daniel reaches that point? The brakes are off, the safety catch is released, and everybody had better duck.

This reminds me of something I read in a story a long time ago. It was Jack saying that Daniel is the scariest member of SG1 because when he decides to fight, he doesn't stop for anything. I think that's very true.

[sg_fignewton]

Welcome! Sit back, have some beer or coffee, depending on your preference. :)

Jack saying that Daniel is the scariest member of SG1 because when he decides to fight, he doesn't stop for anything.

Scariest because as much as I love Daniel, he is certainly capable of being spectacularly wrong. But with the moral certainty of his, what's going to stand in his way?

[moonshayde]

That's what fascinates me most about the Jack-Daniel conflict in canon (and what a large number of fanfic writers totally miss when they turn it into this black-and-white thing of: "Daniel is good and right and all things lovely, and Jack is a big old meanie who just Doesn't Understand.") It's not a conflict of ideals. I think Jack and Daniel have near-identical views on what constitutes right and wrong. Where they differ is that Daniel won't go against his ideals even if keeping to them risks innocent lives, whereas Jack won't stand by and let people be killed solely to keep his own hands clean. And that's why they complement each other so well - sometimes Daniel provides the alternative solution so Jack doesn't have to take his last resort (Scorched Earth), and sometimes Jack's there to take that last resort when Daniel's refusal to consider it is about to end in disaster (Menace).Thank you. THANK YOU. I wish more people would see it. I always have seen Jack and Daniel as having the same core. They are very much alike. But they are

[green_grrl]

I think Jack and Daniel have near-identical views on what constitutes right and wrong. Where they differ is that Daniel won't go against his ideals even if keeping to them risks innocent lives, whereas Jack won't stand by and let people be killed solely to keep his own hands clean.

Yes, yes, yes. Bronze that and mount it on the wall. A lot of what I see happening between them in s4-5 is that they both know deep down that they share the same values. And Jack is frustrated by being constrained by the military against acting more idealistically, and Daniel is frustrated by how often reality conflicts with his ideals. So on the surface they snipe at each other (because they're both prickly, and that's how they burn off steam), and in the end they follow whichever one's tactics will lead to a succcessful mission.

[sg_fignewton]

So on the surface they snipe at each other (because they're both prickly, and that's how they burn off steam), and in the end they follow whichever one's tactics will lead to a succcessful mission.

Yes! And this is why I was so moved by the exchange in Beast of Burden, when Jack expressed regret that they couldn't do it Daniel's way, and Daniel said, "Well, this time I'm not asking you to," and Jack's reaction was incredible sadness that Daniel was seeing things his way. Such respect for each other, and such honesty.

[green_grrl]

Yes! Beast of Burden is my quintessential s4-5 Jack and Daniel episode! Because there's also all the events leading up to that. You can tell that Jack is uncomfortable with the whole slavery thing. He knows it's wrong for the people to be torturing the unas that way. But his mission is to get only Chaka out, despite his discomfort. However he doesn't fight too terribly hard when circumstances dictate they have to free the other unas. Yes, he bitches at Daniel a bit in the holding cells, but I read it as it's mostly because he's pissed that they got caught. The whole episode is so rich with the undercurrents of idealism/reality and how Jack and Daniel balance them. It's one of my absolute favorites.

[tejas]

I suspect that, for all his fanon status as angst-ridden pacifist, Daniel loses far less sleep than anyone else on SG-1 over the lives that he's ended.

THANK YOU!!!! Daniel is far and away the most dangerous person on the team. Maybe not immediately in terms of hand-to-hand or 'quick draw' as you say, but he can be unbelievably ruthless *because* he only acts when he feels he's right. There is NOTHING more dangerous than an idealist.

[sg_fignewton]

Yes, you're right, of course. The role that Daniel plays means that his weapon isn't drawn, and he's still trying to talk while the other members of his team are already aiming. But that doesn't mean that when his weapon is drawn, he doesn't know how to use it.

"Daniel is an idealist, and thus sometimes dangerous."

Lovely, and oh so true. It's why Dark Daniel is such a frightening prospect. A man who is doing something he knows is wrong will reach some kind of limit and apply the brakes. A man who fervently believes that his cause is just and right? He's capable of destroying the whole world, because he's doing it for an ideal.

Heaven help the universe if Daniel ever becomes convinced that it needs to be destroyed.

[aurora_novarum]

ITA. :-D

If you haven't read that primer by katie_m, you should. I'll try and find it. I just re-recced it recently someplace.