Canon vs. Fanon, part 7: "No more beer for you."

[sg_fignewton]

Finally, the section you've all been waiting for! …Okay, some of you. At least one or two. Maybe.

We'll make a brief detour into Daniel's junk food habits, but the primary focus of this section will be Daniel and drinking: his preferences, interactions with his teammates, and his capacity for alcohol. This one turned out to be a bit more analytical

Comments

[redbyrd_sgfic]

Gosh, am I really first here

[sg_fignewton]

Here's your virtual cookie for being first! Or, considering the topic, maybe it should be a virtual beer? ;)

I don't want to be sidetracked by that intriguing suggestion that Daniel doesn't lie... Okay, sidetrack me. :) Are you suggesting that Daniel always tells the truth, no matter what? Although I most definitely do agree that he was feeling a strong element of "gate lag." I loved that casual reference: "...guard the Gate thirty-six hours a day..." And the implication that an Abydonian year is probably eighteen months or so, not twelve, since Secrets is nearly halfway through S2 and it's supposed to be exactly one Abydonian year from the date of Sha're's abduction.. And it was suppertime there, and then they came tearing through the Gate, and hours must have gone past before Jack takes Daniel home; it's long enough for Ferretti to be out of surgery, after all, and for Jack to have been debriefed and change into civvies

[redbyrd_sgfic]

Are you suggesting that Daniel always tells the truth, no matter what?

No, of course not. But I don't see him going out of his way to make something up, either. He's got a good reason for being distracted- why make something up when the truth works just as well. There's a great scene in a S9 episode where he sits down with a Chinese diplomat and she goes off on international politics, and he says, 'actually, I was talking about the food'.

This is actually a pretty good topic for fanon vs. canon actually.

But I think there's ample evidence that he will lie. Summit, obviously. But surely if he was a habitual liar, he'd be better at it?

[sg_fignewton]

But surely if he was a habitual liar, he'd be better at it?

Okay, that made me laugh out loud. :)

I think Daniel is a master of language, and using it to disarm other people, which is why he's a really good diplomat - when he works at it. So when Chen goes off on her diatribe, calmly saying that he was actually going to recommend the meatloaf is the perfet counter.

I agree - why make something up when the truth will do just as well? And it's not as if Daniel's truths aren't bizarre enough under even the best of circumstances! Coming up with a lie that makes a better story would most likely take a lot of hard work. ;)

[redbyrd_sgfic]

As for Teal'c, I think that's an obvious extrapolation of the symbiote's abilities. The symbiote can neutralize drugs and poisons (can't remember what ep that's from), so it makes sense that it can also neutralize alcohol. And I think it's fanon that the symbiote objects to alcohol, but remember that Selmak didn't like coffee. We don't know if that was a matter of taste, or of caffeine content, though. Teal'c doesn't drink coffee (except in Urgo)- wasn't that in your earlier post?- so there is some slight suggestion there that the symbiote doesn't care to have its host ingesting either stimulants or depressants.

[sg_fignewton]

Of course it makes sense, but we don't know that's why Teal'c refrains - that's the fanon part!

Selmac doesn't like coffee? I missed that one. Was it in S6?

And yes, I mentioned that Urgo drove Teal'c to drink coffee in the "Urgo could affect their tastes but not their feelings" section. At least, I think it was there. It might have been in the "Daniel and coffee" section. However, as aurora_novarum points out, Teal'c is very passionate about Ben & Jerry's ice cream, so he obviously doesn't mind some kinds of food addiction!

[redbyrd_sgfic]

I didn't mean it wasn't fanon. Just that the reason it's so prevalent is that it's an obvious explanation. It's not like there was an influential story early in the fandom and everyone adopted it (though there could have been for all I know). But given the canon portrayal of Teal'c's relationship with alcohol, it's perfectly possible for lots of people to have independently arrived at the same conclusion.

And Selmac doesn't like coffee- it's in S7 Death Knell, Sam and Jacob are talking in the lab on the Alpha Site just before the Anubis drones attack. We don't know if it's the taste or the caffeine (or both) that she objects to.

RE: Urgo- I think you're correct that that it is the *only* time we see Teal'c with coffee. But we don't know canonically that he doesn't drink it- only that we've never seen it. Unlike the alcohol example, no one has ever said he doesn't drink it.

[sg_fignewton]

I'm not as anti-fanon as some (waves at moonshayde). I don't mind fanon extrapolation. I do mind, though, when people don't know the difference.

Aha! Death Knell. Another Daniel-lite (or Daniel-absent?) ep I never bothered watching.

And it's quite difficult to prove a negative, isn't it?

[aurora_novarum]

I think it's interesting how much your list shows there's a lot of room for interpretation

[sg_fignewton]

I think most authors tend to project their own attitudes onto characters. It's part of "write what you know." But if we're really honest, it's not entirely fair, is it? :)

No one brought up that "tolerant of one kind of alcohol but not another" in the Q&A thread, I'm afraid! Didn't even know that. Are you suggesting that Daniel has no trouble with moonshine, but can get wasted on a beer or two? I've actually seen fanfics suggest that, come to think of it; but I had no idea it would actually be realistically true.

And I'll point out that any time we see Daniel drinking wine, it doesn't actually happen in our timeline/reality. So really, no basis for that.

Glad you're enjoying!

[aurora_novarum]

Are you suggesting that Daniel has no trouble with moonshine, but can get wasted on a beer or two? I've actually seen fanfics suggest that, come to think of it; but I had no idea it would actually be realistically true.

Yes, that's what I'm suggesting, but I've never done research to prove it. Just...blanking out on the term, but experiences or comments made by people who claim they can't handle beer, but drink wine and/or scotch, whiskey "harder liquor" just fine. What is that term?

I realize my previous comment makes me sound more wedded to the wine, and I'm not. I just read Daniel doesn't prefer the taste of beer in his comments/actions, but he's never said one way or another re: wine, so it may not be alcohol in general he waves off. But you've made an interesting argument that his statement of beer dislike may not be as hard and fast as fanon/canon accepts.

[redbyrd_sgfic]

Um. I'm a bit dubious about claims that people can handle hard liquor better than they can beer or wine. Alcohol is the same drug, no matter how it's delivered. I'd really want to see some objective data (measuring blood alcohol levels vs qty of alcohol ingested per unit time, for example) before I bought this one.

There *is* objective data that people are *horribly* inaccurate in their own estimates of how much food or drink they ingest, so I'm more likely to suspect that a person comparing beer to say whiskey only drinks a couple of whiskeys slowly vs. consuming more beer than they realize because they don't take the alcohol content of beer seriously. There's also a quite a lot of variation in absorption rate depending on whether it's taken with food and your energy level at the time. I won't generally notice the effect of one beer with dinner, but I will if I drink it when tired or on an empty stomach or both.

[aurora_novarum]

BTW, was the second beer Daniel brought to the pier in Threads/Moebius for Daniel or for Sam? I'm going to have to look again, aren't I? LOL Oh, the torture. ;-)

[sg_fignewton]

Hmm, interesting question! True, there were two of them sitting there, and he brought out two beer bottles, so maybe they weren't for him at all...?

Except that - no. Just, no. I will not envision Teal'c and Daniel hauling that cooler over to the dock just so Daniel can obligingly serve his master and mistress with some beer. That's just... yuk. One was definitely for him, okay? :)

[aurora_novarum]

LOL. I wasn't implying THAT! Notice Teal'c and Daniel situated the cooler closer to themselves and THEIR chairs. He may have just been being nice and giving Jack and Sam the dregs of the cheap beer. ;-)

[sg_fignewton]

Hee! Okay, I'll accept that explanation, especially the idea of dumping the Budweisers on Sam and Jack and keeping the Guinness for himself... but honestly? I really think he was giving one to Jack and keeping one for himself. Still, fun to speculate!

[green_grrl]

I think you've hit the nail on the head, both with the chocolate and the alcohol!

Love the "misdirection" explanation for COTG. Combined with a long, long painful day? Yeah, a little naturally loopy and a lot not interested in digging into the pain. And good call on SoG, too -- conversation was definitely more the draw than beer. I definitely assume a few beers under Daniel's belt by the orange balancing scene in Lost City. If it was early enough to bring doughnuts, it was really early to be drinking! And Daniel's bigger by s7, working out with Teal'c, so he would definitely have more mass to absorb the alcohol. We have no idea how many he drank, but I'd say more than one or two -- Teal'c can drive, after all.

You've described the Daniel (and Jack and Teal'c) in my head! :-)

[sg_fignewton]

Teal'c can drive, after all.

Yeah, because Daniel taught him - in 1969. I have so much love for that bit of canon. :)

Interesting observation re doughnuts, and Daniel's increased mass - yes, it was probably too early for serious drinking (that doesn't seem to have stopped Jack, though, even before they showed up), and who knows how much Daniel had actually eaten?

Glad you like the analysis of CoTG and SoG! As for the chocolate - well, it technically is canon. Just not from the show. :)

[green_grrl]

As for the chocolate - well, it technically is canon. Just not from the show. :)

Though now I don't remember how much they knew about where they were going before they moved out -- they kitted up for the desert, right? Chocolate bars in the desert are a MESS, unless you know it's winter. I cry product placement -- because a desert rat would bring M&Ms! ;-)

[sg_fignewton]

Hee! Not chocolatey enough for Daniel, maybe? :)

Although they were wearing green BDUs, not desert camo, and the only info they got from the first probe was oxygen and temperature levels. The Abydos Gateroom was probably a lot cooler than outside. They suspected an Egyptian culture, of course; but Egytian climate? No proof either way.

I claim lack of forethought, myself. :)