Not really much to add discussion wise, but I noticed a few examples of things you may want to consider including.
In your "always right" list,you didn't mention "Politics", where Jack and Sam were "it's not that we don't believe you...it's just that we don't believe you." about the AU and Jack requested Daniel hold the AU story in reserve when dealing with Kinsey, who they all met for the first time. Granted, when Daniel did use it against Kinsey, it didn't work...but it's KINSEY! He's always had his own agenda.
Also, regarding Daniel's many accomplishments, you didn't list "Disclosure" when Maj. Davis explains "In 1945, a team of scientists hoping to find a military application for the device successfully established a stable wormhole by a process of random dialling. It was, for all intents and purposes, a lucky accident, which they were unable to repeat. The Gate remained inactive. Until eight years ago, when this man
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Oh, I know I left out lots. There was no way I was going to manage all of it. I'm pretty sure I said once or twice that I would be glad to get comments with additions. :)
I kind of made the AU from TBFTGOG all-inclusive with Daniel's pushing everyone to try the gate address and try and stop Apophis, but maybe that wasn't clear enough.
Yes to Davis and Shen! (Sheng?) And I laughed out loud when Nerus is billing and cooing over the classic team, and gets to Mitchell who looks all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, and Nerus just looks at him and says, "Meh." Poor Mitchell. :)
Also, Jack's eyes are not chocolate. I doubt he wants you to eat them.
Hee! :)
You remind me of the marvelously snarky Zoomway, from my old fandom: Fanfic Cliches. Check out the first picture on the page, and you'll see why. And make sure you scroll down to see her delightful Mary Sue.
Thank you! If I weren't already in love with these posts, I would be now. Saint!Daniel is the Daniel characterization I hate most.
The only thing remotely canonical about this strange bit of fanon is that Daniel has never received any formal recognition for his years of dedication.
See, I just assume that Daniel's not too concerned about the medals and the ceremonies, because he knows that he has the respect of people that matter and that's much more valuable than a medal on a wall. And also that Daniel makes a ton of money. It's part of my personal fandon, I've never really stated it explicitly in fic, but any time I write, in the back of my head that Daniel makes six figures (rates for 2007 are here but it was in the six-figure range as far back as '04 and I'm assuming Daniel is at the high end of that) and is getting hazard pay on top of it. Medals, shemedals. ;)
Saint!Daniel is the Daniel characterization I hate most.
Saint Daniel is the post I wanted do most, but I was afraid to start with it. And I'm glad I got some practice in first! Saint Daniel is so boring in comparison with the real thing, anyway. :)
I agree that the same Daniel who doesn't seem to be overly troubled at his outside reputation probably doesn't much care about medals. I also don't see him caring much about cash, although niamaea would probably assert that he needs enough to pay for his leather jackets. ;) Still, the question isn't whether or not Daniel cares; it's whether or not he deserves that formal recognition. And I think he does.
I have this idea that Daniel doesn't really keep track of his money. It all goes in by direct deposit and he has his bills on auto-pay (considering how much time he spends off-world, I don't think he could function any other way). And, of course, he very often eats and sleeps courtesy of Uncle Sam, and he's single with no kids, so he probably has low expenses in general. So when Daniel checks his bank account balance, he's always a little surprised at how much is in there. Which, he doesn't care--except when he needs a new leather jacket, hee--but everyone knows that Daniel buys his friends the best presents, because, hey, what else is he going to do with all that money? ;)
I know that's all speculation on my part, and I'm getting completely off topic, but I spend too much time thinking about stupid things like how Daniel handles his money and I sometimes I end up going off on a tangent. Sorry. *sheepish*
Still, the question isn't whether or not Daniel cares; it's whether or not he deserves that formal recognition. And I think he
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I'm sure that everyone in the SGC arranges their bills as you suggest, or they'd be coming home from delayed missions - and lockdowns - to find the electricity off and the food in the freezer turning pretty shades of grey and green. :)
Daniel did buy a house for S7, and upkeep isn't cheap. But I agree that the guy who spent his pre-SGC years on the edge of eviction (the poor boy had to buy plaid shirts in bulk! He clearly had no money!) isn't going to think in terms of money.
I think one of the reasons people tend to think that he's undervalued when he's not is that he's never been shown getting much formal recognition.
Yes. In Secrets, for example, all it would have taken was a single line of dialogue from Hammond in the opener: "All right, Doctor Jackson, you have a go to Abydos. I'm sorry you won't be joining us in Washington; you deserve a medal as much as Captain Carter and Colonel O'Neill." Or something.
Mary Sue Canon Characters/Fanon CharactersstargatebabeMay 2 2007, 20:16:38 UTC
You are entirely correct about many fanfic stories making Daniel into a Mary Sue St. Daniel. But the bottom line is that any Sue is boring if poorly done. Proper characterization is the key to an interesting story no matter what the plot, assuming there is one. Therefore, any character has to be flawed, uneven, short-sighted at times, just plain wrong now and then, have limitations, and have his moods
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Re: Mary Sue Canon Characters/Fanon Characterssg_fignewtonMay 2 2007, 20:47:23 UTC
I'm not so sure that we're disagreeing with each other, actually.
You don't care for the automatic assumption that an OC is a Mary Sue. I strongly agree with that. There are certainly OCs out there that are engaging and interesting. My caveat, as I said, is whether or not the character takes over the story at the expense of other characters. If a character does so, it doesn't matter to me if it's an OC or a canon character; he or she has become a Mary Sue.
On the other hand, your third paragraph suggests that any poorly-realized character is automatically a Sue. I don't think I would agree with that assessment, but maybe I'm misunderstanding you. I would say that all Mary Sues are boring, but not all boring characters are Mary Sues. Does that make sense?
You mention that there's nothing wrong with indulging in a little wish fulfillment and writing yourself into the story, having your avatar meet Daniel, go through the Stargate, and so forth. Of course there isn't! The problem is when the author expects readers to enjoy their
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Truly an epic post. Give yourself a great big pat on the shoulder and imagine that it's from me. And then on the other shoulder. And then on the back. And then on the head, unless you find that condescending, which it totally isn't.
I'm with you--Saint Daniel is BORING AND ANNOYING AND I DON'T WANT TO READ HIM. Definitely don't want to write him, either. Working on it.
These posts will be a great resource for me when I finally make time to start seriously writing some SG-1 fanfic. (Bit caught up in RL right now.)
And then on the head, unless you find that condescending, which it totally isn't.
Like when Jack ruffles Daniel's hair, in Into the Fire? ;)
Oh, yes - I don't want to read Saint Daniel! And as you say, making sure I don't write Saint Daniel might be a little bit harder. Daniel love is insidious, I think.
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In your "always right" list,you didn't mention "Politics", where Jack and Sam were "it's not that we don't believe you...it's just that we don't believe you." about the AU and Jack requested Daniel hold the AU story in reserve when dealing with Kinsey, who they all met for the first time. Granted, when Daniel did use it against Kinsey, it didn't work...but it's KINSEY! He's always had his own agenda.
Also, regarding Daniel's many accomplishments, you didn't list "Disclosure" when Maj. Davis explains "In 1945, a team of scientists hoping to find a military application for the device successfully established a stable wormhole by a process of random dialling. It was, for all intents and purposes, a lucky accident, which they were unable to repeat. The Gate remained inactive. Until eight years ago, when this man ( ... )
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I kind of made the AU from TBFTGOG all-inclusive with Daniel's pushing everyone to try the gate address and try and stop Apophis, but maybe that wasn't clear enough.
Yes to Davis and Shen! (Sheng?) And I laughed out loud when Nerus is billing and cooing over the classic team, and gets to Mitchell who looks all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, and Nerus just looks at him and says, "Meh." Poor Mitchell. :)
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Thinky comments later, but for now:
The word "cerulean" should be stricken permanently from fanfic writers' dictionaries when describing eyes, by the way.
A-MEN!
I'm so tired of fics extolling his eyes. Sam's too. Also, Jack's eyes are not chocolate. I doubt he wants you to eat them.
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Hee! :)
You remind me of the marvelously snarky Zoomway, from my old fandom: Fanfic Cliches. Check out the first picture on the page, and you'll see why. And make sure you scroll down to see her delightful Mary Sue.
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FoLCdom has the marvelous archive and, in addition to Zoom's regular boards, a message board specifically for fanfic.
Now I'm getting all nostalgic for LnC again...
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The only thing remotely canonical about this strange bit of fanon is that Daniel has never received any formal recognition for his years of dedication.
See, I just assume that Daniel's not too concerned about the medals and the ceremonies, because he knows that he has the respect of people that matter and that's much more valuable than a medal on a wall. And also that Daniel makes a ton of money. It's part of my personal fandon, I've never really stated it explicitly in fic, but any time I write, in the back of my head that Daniel makes six figures (rates for 2007 are here but it was in the six-figure range as far back as '04 and I'm assuming Daniel is at the high end of that) and is getting hazard pay on top of it. Medals, shemedals. ;)
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Saint Daniel is the post I wanted do most, but I was afraid to start with it. And I'm glad I got some practice in first! Saint Daniel is so boring in comparison with the real thing, anyway. :)
I agree that the same Daniel who doesn't seem to be overly troubled at his outside reputation probably doesn't much care about medals. I also don't see him caring much about cash, although niamaea would probably assert that he needs enough to pay for his leather jackets. ;) Still, the question isn't whether or not Daniel cares; it's whether or not he deserves that formal recognition. And I think he does.
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I know that's all speculation on my part, and I'm getting completely off topic, but I spend too much time thinking about stupid things like how Daniel handles his money and I sometimes I end up going off on a tangent. Sorry. *sheepish*
Still, the question isn't whether or not Daniel cares; it's whether or not he deserves that formal recognition. And I think he ( ... )
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Daniel did buy a house for S7, and upkeep isn't cheap. But I agree that the guy who spent his pre-SGC years on the edge of eviction (the poor boy had to buy plaid shirts in bulk! He clearly had no money!) isn't going to think in terms of money.
I think one of the reasons people tend to think that he's undervalued when he's not is that he's never been shown getting much formal recognition.
Yes. In Secrets, for example, all it would have taken was a single line of dialogue from Hammond in the opener: "All right, Doctor Jackson, you have a go to Abydos. I'm sorry you won't be joining us in Washington; you deserve a medal as much as Captain Carter and Colonel O'Neill." Or something.
At least the right people value Daniel properly!
...And by that, I mean us. ;)
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You don't care for the automatic assumption that an OC is a Mary Sue. I strongly agree with that. There are certainly OCs out there that are engaging and interesting. My caveat, as I said, is whether or not the character takes over the story at the expense of other characters. If a character does so, it doesn't matter to me if it's an OC or a canon character; he or she has become a Mary Sue.
On the other hand, your third paragraph suggests that any poorly-realized character is automatically a Sue. I don't think I would agree with that assessment, but maybe I'm misunderstanding you. I would say that all Mary Sues are boring, but not all boring characters are Mary Sues. Does that make sense?
You mention that there's nothing wrong with indulging in a little wish fulfillment and writing yourself into the story, having your avatar meet Daniel, go through the Stargate, and so forth. Of course there isn't! The problem is when the author expects readers to enjoy their ( ... )
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I'm with you--Saint Daniel is BORING AND ANNOYING AND I DON'T WANT TO READ HIM. Definitely don't want to write him, either. Working on it.
These posts will be a great resource for me when I finally make time to start seriously writing some SG-1 fanfic. (Bit caught up in RL right now.)
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Like when Jack ruffles Daniel's hair, in Into the Fire? ;)
Oh, yes - I don't want to read Saint Daniel! And as you say, making sure I don't write Saint Daniel might be a little bit harder. Daniel love is insidious, I think.
Glad you're enjoying the posts. :)
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