Avengers
So I've had a few thoughts, but mostly I've just worked through what makes the Hulk tick. Consider this an all-purpose Avengers discussion post; feel free to bring up other topics. This is just all I got right now because, as my icon indicates, I am tired. Also, I wrote it a bit dis-jointedly in between reading stuff online.
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ANYWAY.
So it's really a psychological thing. That's fascinating! The Hulk has always seemed a fairly one-dimensional character to me--he transforms, he smashes, the end. I think I have one comic where he features prominently. Angel and Iceman have to battle him for some reason? I should read that again. Most of the Avengers comics I have feature a more regular lineup: Cap, Tony, Scarlet Witch, Vision and/or Wonder Man, Wasp, Yellowjacket/Ant Man/whatever his name is, sometimes She-Hulk...
Anyway. I should see those other Hulk movies because I suspect they failed because they stuck to that same formula. Stepping in at a point where he already knows what's going on with himself and strives to stop it from happening makes him SO much more interesting! Also, Mark Ruffalo. (He's a legit actor now but I will always remember him as "that adorable boy who liked rock music in Bring It On.") Joss really managed to bring previously unseen depths to the character and again, I can't really put into words how, except maybe that he was allowed to be a self-aware adorable nerd instead of just a confused repressed mess.
Oh! And the fact that he rarely (if ever) spoke when transformed and just ran and pummeled things when he was three times the size of Cap (who is not a small man) made him a lot less cheesy than I think previous incarnations have made him (again, don't know for sure) and a lot more terrifying.
And this post cleared up some things for me. Joss didn't abandon him; it was well-written subtlety! HOORAY JOSS HOORAY.
Something similarly interesting: in the comics, Bruce's cousin Jennifer Walters was very shy and somehow got shot. Bruce was the only possible donor around and so she ended up with Hulk powers and became She-Hulk. She suffered them to a lesser degree than Bruce but they were also initially triggered by anger. She gained control over the powers and also decided to keep the She-Hulk form permanently because it made her more confident and assertive.
Although this is more likely due to Marvel's wish to have a green chick wandering around in a bikini all the time, the conclusion we can draw from this is that Jennifer (a shy woman) can more easily embrace the monster to overcome her issues/disorders and Bruce (apparently a massively repressed man) just stays a mess.
Also, this barely has to do with anything, but I really liked that moment of fear when Black Widow (I keep wanting to call her Scarlet Witch even though in real life Scarlet Witch does not have red/auburn hair but BLACK hair) realizes he's transforming and there's nothing she can do except run. Not that it's cool or anything, just that she spends most of the movie being so tough, and giving her fears makes her realistic!
Wikipedia article on She-Hulk: here.
Just to open up further conversation: this has nothing to do with the Hulk but it's interesting. I don't think I agree with her on that, I think it was meant to be a random old-timey-sounding insult thrown in because Loki doesn't talk like a normal person, but...thoughts?
I keep trying to think about how great the movie is and my heart just swells with love and then I imagine the Hulk smashing Loki into the floor and punching (was it...Thor?) in the face and Tony and Thor throwing down in the woods and Tony and Bruce being nerd bros Natasha saying, "I'm WORKING here, I can't talk now" and also the part where she tells that army team outside to stand down in India.
I WANT TO SEE IT AGAIN. I will have to settle for watching Iron Man, and also X-Men: First Class, most cracktastic Marvel movie ever.
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1. Tony totally understood all this from the beginning. I'm not sure exactly why I got that vibe, but I'm reasonably certain he did, even though he has a slightly different perspective on the whole thing. He poked Banner with the sharp thingy more to mess with him/tease him than anything, although there was some 'to see how he'd react' in there. Tony did not believe for a second that Banner was just going to turn into the Hulk right there. He wasn't the slightest bit nervous or edgy around him, probably in part due to the whole nerd-bros thing, but at the very least, he understood that Banner's methods were clearly working for him and treating him like a ticking time bomb wasn't helping. And since Tony is a genius, I'm quite convinced he could deduce the above, like, seconds after reading Banner's bio. Especially as a guy who is madly in love with his own alter ego.
2. There's a little bit of friction on the internet about whether Loki (I'm sorry, 'poor misunderstood woobie Loki') became evil because of neglect and/or mistreatment by his adoptive family. The second time watching, I had an abrupt reversal epiphany. Theory runs that Loki is as sympathetic as he is because of his fraternal relationship with Thor. I don't honestly know what his biological parentage is supposed to be like, but I keep thinking of The Demon's Lexicon. I think it's like they took a kid with a genetic predisposition toward sociopathy or psychopathy, raised him in a wealthy family with a brother and all, pushed him aside in favor of his brother, and denied him things because of his origin and/or risk factors. He cares about his brother and probably the rest of the family, to some extent, but he's still a sociopath/psychopath, which might not have been an issue if he'd had a happier childhood, but neither can you blame all his problems on the family. They raised Dexter and didn't give him any rules to live by. That's my theory. This from a girl who hasn't seen Thor yet--watch Thor prove me 100% wrong.
3. I had more things but I forget. Movie continues to rock.
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"I think [Bruce and Tony] have a really interesting relationship because Tony Stark is who Bruce Banner wishes he could have been in some regard. He's this renegade scientist who used revolutionary ideas and took huge risks and in some ways experimented on himself, with himself, and because of that ends up being this incredibly powerful, well-liked, well-loved superhero. And Bruce Banner, on the other hand, did exactly the same thing and he's hunted and haunted and on the run and miserable. And so I think that Banner looks at him as like, Oh, wow, he actually made it work. And in some ways they speak the same language, they're both scientists. And so Tony Stark does a lot to bring Banner to a place of, like, thinking about using the Hulk for good by embracing the Hulk, by actually being part of the team. There's a really good interconnectedness between the two.”
- Mark Ruffalo discussing The Avengers. (via vengerturtle)
for reference: science bros
and this, because DAWSOME: he is precious
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1A. I also think Tony likes to do the opposite of what everyone else does just because he can. Because when he does it then people like it.
2. Well, I haven't watched Thor yet (hopefully today!) so I’m not going to weigh in on Loki. However, I'm not really on the "poor misunderstood" train of anyone, much less Loki. I can buy that he doesn't have the parental support he feels he deserves, but some people are just jerks. (See: Dr. Cox in my favorite episode of Scrubs: "It isn't because you weren't loved when you were a kid, it's because you're so ego-centered that the love wasn't enough. So you pulled pigtails and pushed the fat kids into the dirt so no one could ignore little Perry.") Loki is a jerk. He wants everyone to pay attention to him and worship him and HE DOES WHAT HE WANTS. I think it's more that he keeps trying to take over the world and Thor gets in the way so he feels slighted.
Also, I can't take him very seriously because in some of my favorite X-Men comics ever (X-Men & Alpha Flight and the follow-up issues, New Mutants Special and X-Men Annual #...9? 9 or 10) he is up to ridiculous shenanigans. He tries to make Storm into a god/dess and turns the New Mutants into a mess.
I will judge more after seeing Thor. (The commercial on Cap made it look hilarious! I like hilarity!)
4. Haha well yeah unfortunately Tony kind of commands people's attention and the nature of his personality means that it is more significant if he makes a sacrificial gesture than if Cap did, for example.
4A. YES. It's really interesting. You know how some people make themselves more upset because they are worrying about being upset? I think that's going on with him here too. He's like, "Oh God I'm freaked out OH GOD IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN OHMYGOD WHAT DO I DO EVERYONE WILL DIE." He totally psychs himself out. He is also obviously afraid to be too big, or noticed. When people notice him, bad things happen.
4B. You know, I think that Tony immediately recognized a genius in Bruce (didn't he say he had read Bruce’s work?) and said to himself, "It is stupid that we are treating him like this." Do you remember what I said about how Tony was most successful when he thought of himself as a weapon/tool? I think that's what he’s going for here too. He sees this brilliant man who is essentially being caged from full potential because everyone is terrified of him. Tony is not down with that. One of the many things I like best about Tony (haha) is that he is 100% himself and unashamed about it. He just keeps plowing onward. It helps that he is a genius, useful, and a billionaire, because then he can get away with a lot of shenanigans. Bruce doesn't have that, but I don't think that matters to Tony. Tony sees no reason why they should be treating Bruce like this when he could be one of their greatest assets. In that vein, I think Tony also sees that there is nothing to worry about because Bruce is capable of handling this.
5. <3 Interesting! Oh Mark Ruffalo! Also interesting because they both took big risks for science (although obviously Tony was driven by the need for escape) and they became mirrors of each other. Negative mirrors! Like Sirius and Lupin! And more about treating themselves as tools. (Side note: not only did Tony turn himself into a weapon/tool, he also turned himself into the best ride ever. Given his love of cars, not a shocker.) Means to an end.
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1a. Exactly!
2. Yes. I think my entire impression of him now has been altered by the tiny avengers comics, and obviously I need to watch Thor to understand him correctly. But generally I'm not sure I agree with myself anymore. I like sympathetic, understandable characters, and I don't have any trouble separating awful things they have done from their woobieness. Example, I love Snape as a character, but I still agree that he was a jerk. I'd never argue that all the good guys were just being mean to him and if they'd only understood he would be perfectly fine (well, except James and Sirius as kids, but duh). So, with Loki, I think it's entirely possible he could have a tragic, misunderstood backstory that makes one want to cuddle him, and at the same time be a horrible evil mcevilpants that reacts grossly out of proportion to what has been done to him and completely deserves to be badly defeated.
Of course, it helps that Tom Hiddleston is adorable.
4. Well, the real thing I was getting at was that Tony's development arc was still ongoing. Cap didn't really need any development in Avengers, he just had some relationships with other characters to develop, and actually Tony's sacrificial gesture helps his relationship with especially Cap but all the team.
4a. Really, I'm amazed I've never been interested in the Hulk before. I've always been fascinated with transformation stories and werewolf-type things and the psychology of it all.
4b & 5. YES. Really, what it boils down to, is that Tony and Bruce see themselves in each other and treat each other accordingly and become nerd bros and it is awesome. I love how much their reactions to each other says about themselves.
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So, my conclusion about Tony poking Bruce is that there was a large element of 'wanted to see what you'd do' in there. Earlier in the movie, who was deliberately pretending to lose control to see how people would react? Bruce apologizes and explains himself very quickly (he kinda has to, given the way she freaked out, but he seemed fairly sincere too even if he was a little bit 'trollololol'); Tony does not and would not (because generally he doesn't care if people think he's nuts, and he got the desired result anyway). There's the difference between them: Tony is a bit out-of-control and does what he wants, Bruce reins himself in and is careful about how he is with people; but they both had the scientific curiosity and the satisfaction in trolling, and they were both completely confident that there was no actual risk.
And my rationalization of Tony in TIH:
First of all, he really doesn't like General Ross, so he's not even trying to do actual banter or anything. The idea, I think, would be that he needs to get the general's cooperation or whatever, and not antagonize him, so his attitude is really half-hearted because he does not want to talk to that guy, and he cannot go around pushing his buttons either. The other part is that I think this would be between IM1 and IM2. IM2 is where he was kinda maybe interested in the Avengers (mostly an ego thing at that point I think), but they didn't want to deal with his train wreck. Avengers was first brought up in IM1, in the stinger. So let's pretend for a minute-Tony was thinking about it being a good idea, but wasn't a train wreck just yet, and heard about the Hulk and very quickly figured out what was really going on there. Oh great, I have now rationalized it as the seeds of nerd bros. Yay?
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So, Odin invaded Jotunheim and took the Casket of Ancient Winters to force an end to the war and gain control over the Jotun. He saw a random baby and decided to take it home with him.
> Baby is small and can appear either blue or flesh colored. Presumably, baby is half-Jotun with likely an Asgard mother.
> How in the world did Odin know that the baby was the son of the Jotun king? I think he told Loki that?
> Poor woobie Loki time: why was baby Loki left lying around like that in the first place, to be found on Odin's way out? I thought of three possible reasons: 1. it's sort of a test, possibly a traditional Jotun baby hazing thing, where a baby is left exposed and if it survives it's worthy of raising (which since Loki is small and weak and not entirely Jotun he might not have survived, 2. he had just recently been dumped there by his likely Asgard mother, sort of a doorbell baby, or 3. The Jotun king what's-his-name dumped him there, not wanting him. (Actually, one of the latter two seems more likely, since the Jotun showed no signs of wanting him back. Or maybe that's just how they are. Or maybe there's something else I didn't notice/haven't thought of.)
Odin's idea, apparently, was to unite the kingdoms and end the warring by putting half-Jotun Loki on the throne as if he was the result of an arrainged marriage and not an unwanted bastard doorbell baby. But he also had Thor (which was actually older, did they say? What's the deal with Odin's crazy plan if he already had an heir?), and I guess as they grew up he kept waffling over which plan was better. Eventually he chose to favor Thor but held Loki in reserve as a spare, and evidently spend Loki's entire life leading him to believe that he just had to be worthy of the throne to get it. (I'm guessing that he was doubtful of Thor's ability to be wise and all that.)
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Loki is jealous when Thor is acknowledged as heir, but still loves his brother and seems chill about it. Either he just straight-up believes Thor will do something stupid and Odin will realize his mistake, or he's already got his plan to force just such a situation ready. (I forget which came first.) So, Loki has this plan. He lets in some Jotun to go after the Casket, which Thor hotheadedly chases after. Loki tells Heimdall where they're going, who tells Odin. It appears that Loki's plan was for him to talk their way out (undoubtedly showing off his 'silver tonuge' and mad leadership skills for Odin), but then they insulted Thor and the brawl happened and Odin had to bail them out.
> But what's this? Why did Loki's hand turn blue when the Jotun touched him? Blue-like the Jotun? What is this madness?
So Thor is banished. I'm still not sure whether Loki wanted that outcome or not. He was already starting to feel a little crazy and under normal circumstances, probably just would have taken advantage of the time Thor was out of the way to be super-helpful and the best son and heir ever.
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And it just keeps getting worse from there. The sad thing is, I think Loki would have made a fine king under less crazy-making circumstances. A little underhanded and ruthless, a little arrogant and self-centered, and perhaps not well-suited to rule the people who don't value his methods and skills, but considering that his motives were focused on making his father proud, giving Asgard the most worthy king, and proving himself loyal to Asgard... It's not like he was in it for the sake of power, and he knew what he was doing when he was on the throne. It's just that the circumstances drove him to keep doing worse and worse things. (Don't get me wrong-he dug his own hole. He just didn't realize he was digging above a deposit of quicksand. Which then emptied into a black hole of unfathomable horrors.)
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