Of dysfunctional royal families real and imagined

[selenak]

My Merlin muse came back and at last I could write the story about Arthur and Morgana I've been wanting to write throughout season 4. It's off to be beta'd now. Arthurian family dynamics are screwed up in any incarnation of the myth, but, to misquote Tolstoy about unhappy families, they're differently screwed up in every single one. Oh, messed

Comments

[amenirdis]

That's a tremendously good point! The Wars of the Roses is so primarily about the women, not about the men who often are only figureheads for mothers or wives (like Henry VI?).

[selenak]

Exactly! So what does it say that the big pseudo medieval fantasy epic that prides itself on "realism" is mostly about the men? (Not that there aren't interesting women about as well, but their fates and positions of power are so conventional by comparison...)

[amenirdis]

I'm always annoyed when authors say that they have no significant characters in their books (set for example in the Napoleonic Wars) because it's not realistic to have female characters who do things besides get married or swoon. Having women with agency would be anachronistic, they say. And I just.... I wonder if they've ever actually read the primary sources of the period!

[selenak]

I suspect they haven't. Only other works of fiction in which there are no interesting women, either. Bah!

[violaswamp]

I am going to be sorely tempted to simply cut and paste your entire historical aside the next time some GRRM fanboy earnestly tells me that the female characters have to be raped because it's REALISTIC.

[violaswamp]

Or that there can't be female players in the game of thrones because it's not REALISTIC. WTF, GRRM.

[selenak]

Indeed. Even going a few centuries further back than the Wars of the Roses in English history, we have

[lakrids404]

I like tv-show more than the books right now, and I also find no great desire to read the latest one. I think it help the story, that it's necessary for the TV-serie to compress a lot of the story.

For women in power in the middle age, I can mention Queen Margrete 1 (1353-1612). She united the nordic countries into the Kalmarunionen, mostly through diplomacy and marriage and adoption. After her it has been one long back sliding of Denmarks power and land

[selenak]

I always love hearing of interesting women - thank you for telling me about Margrete I!

[selenak]

No kidding. I'd love a Sharon Penman adaption, but an original take would be great as well.

[diotimah]

A Sharon Penman adaptation would be great.

[kate_swynford]

The BBC is making one, based on Philippa Gregory's books. Not the best source material, in my opinion, but still it will be interesting to see what they make of it.

[diotimah]

Also, while the general aging up for the young 'uns may have created a bit of bother on the Stark side of things (as many people have pointed out, Jon Snow behaving like a fourteen years old is okay if he is, in fact, fourteen, but feels quite differently when he's played by an actor who looks like he is in his 20s), the fact that Peter Dinklage looks older, not younger than the actors who play Jaime and Cersei makes for a slightly different type of sibling dynamic which to me is more interesting. The conversation between Tyrion and Cersei, for example, is far less omg eternally maltreated youngest brother and evil stupid sister and more two equals.

Yes, I agree. I enjoyed both the TV series and the novels (though, in case of the latter, I prefer the earlier installments), each on their own terms. Cersei in particular is a much more complex character in the TV version, whereas in the books, I felt let down by her. Though often praised for his "grey characters", Martin is evidently not that great on writing complex women.

Now A Game

[selenak]

There is a lot of complexity around in Martin's books, but it's definitely more on the male side of things, and so is the power. I can't imagine any of the real life women from the Wars of the Roses named above, except perhaps Cecily Neville, in his books, and Cecily's nearest equivalent, Catelyn, gets zombiefied, so.

[diotimah]

Absolutely. And yeah, Catelyn's zombiefication is rather symbolic, in that respect.