The Good Wife 3.13 and Downton Abbey, season 1

[selenak]

See, I'm used to having the CIA presented as interfering baddies in shows centered around FBI agents, and the FBI presented as annoying interferers in shows centered around CIA agents, but I think The Good Wife has to be given pioneer credit for being the first show to make a recurring villain out of the U.S. Treasury.

Comments

[shezan]

Is Thomas gay? It never was clear to me!

[wee_warrior]

I'm not sure the character is entirely clear on it himself, but there is that situation in Season 2 queenofthorns hints at above, which made me think that there is meant to be an emotional component to it. Given that he is usually contrasted with the oh so virile Mr. Bates, he often has shades of a stereotypical sissy villain, which is rather unfortunate all in itself.

[zahrawithaz]

I think Thomas's scenes with the Duke clearly imply that he had feelings for him, in addition to seeing an opportunity for his ambition. He stumbles away and grabs for a drink after the rejection, for one thing, and the actor plays the blackmail threat like someone in emotional distress grasping for straws

[violaswamp]

I was also quite put out by the dark-skinned foreigner being a rapist

I think it's actually quite a bit worse than that--I think the show thinks he isn't a rapist! That Mary consented fully to that encounter. Fans certainly seem to think so, which depresses me.

He did seem to know the consequences of deflowering a young English aristocratic woman, though. He promised she'd "still be a virgin for her husband," meaning that whatever they did was probably not penetrative intercourse.

[zahrawithaz]

The fact that Cora asks Mary if Pamuk "forced her," and Mary shakes her head no, offer textual support of this--not to mention that she later claims him as "her lover," and that her grief for him strongly implies enjoying the experience. I think we're clearly supposed to believe that Mary changed her mind or belatedly consented once he appeared in her room, and that we can all see how very problematic a definition of consent this is

[violaswamp]

Yes, there is textual support for the "bodice-ripper" or "no means yes" interpretation. In addition to the examples you cited...well, I don't know how far you watched, but without spoiling you or Selenak, I think I can tell you that Mary later describes her motivation for the encounter as "lust" (and not coercion).

On Orientalist stereotypes: another stereotype is that dark-skinned men are brutes who dominate women (who secretly love it, because beneath the veneer of civilization women just want thuggish cavemen who can sexually master them). And Pamuk fits that as well.

On a more trivial note, I'm rather annoyed that they gave such a scummy character the same last name as Nobel Prize-winning novelist Orhan Pamuk. I believe it's a common Turkish name, but it still bugs me.

[selenak]

As Viola_Swamp said, my impression was that the show didn't want us to take it as a rape but as a bodice ripper "no means yes" style seduction, which is appalling in another way.

Re: English nobleman being a total gentleman - well, that one was, but Mary's previous short term suitor the Duke was a bastard who was carrying on with Thomas simultanously (while exploiting him as well with no intention of honoring his employment promises) and backed off Mary as soon as he realised she wouldn't inherit the estate, so on that count, I didn't have the problem of English nobleman being presented better than foreign diplomats.

[zahrawithaz]

Seconded on both counts.

The Duke is a much more twisted villain, and I don't think we're supposed to see Evelyn Napier as the perfect English gentleman. As Mary, the narrative, and he himself point out, he's boring. We're supposed to see him as the safe alternative that Mary passes up for actual attraction, dangerous though it may be.

As Pamuk's foil, I don't think he comes out entirely on top, because for Mary, Pamuk at least represents an authenticity of feeling that we know--especially given the Mary/Matthew dynamic (dare I say endgame?)--Napier can't. His perfect English gentlemen persona is part of what makes him bland and a stultifying alternative as Mary tries to understand the gap between what she wants and is supposed to want.