[never mind George/Pattie and George/Olivia, he obviously ships George/John. :)]
Again, I'm with him there :-). Partly joking, but actually, I think John/George had an intensity and complexity that is better understood if you compare it to a family or romantic relationship, and I personally think of it as more defining for George than his marriages.
[ On the minus side, hearing Yoko tell how John supported Something being released as a single and was so supportive of George in general leaves you - or rather, me - feeling I've slipped into an alternate reality, because in the universe with those pesky books I've read come from, John couldn't be bothered to show up for recording While My Guitar Gently Weeps on the White Album (despite the fact George was there for him during Revolution Number 9 on the same album), John thought Only A Northern Song was such crap he refused to play or sing on it and wandered about the studio while Paul and George did take after take after take, John was openly scornful of I Me Mine in January 1969 when they recorded it the first time and couldn't be bothered to participate when they re-recorded it in January 1970.]
Well, Yoko probably does not grasp the complexity of John/George, so in that way, she does live in an alternate universe, but I do live in a universe where John's support of "Something," and other types of support of George is consistent with his total disregard for the things you mention. "I, Me, Mine," "Only a Northern Song," and "While My Guitar Gently Weeps," are all direct complaints about other people who think of themselves and each other and ignore/devalue George. If I hear them as being about John and Paul, I'm sure John could have heard them that way, too. (And "OaNS" IS very crappy musically, IMO.). "Something," on the other hand, is a love song that owes a lot to John's influence, to say the least. A supposed love song with a chorus of uncertainty, "I don't know, I don't know!", an implication that the singer will be somehow forced to part with the beloved, and a declaration of religious-style "belief" in the lover is SO like John's unique approach. Even Frank Sinatra feels the song owes a lot to John and Paul, quipping that it's his "favorite Lennon/McCartney song." John also refers back to it in "I'm Losing You:" "I don't wanna lose ya now," so he clearly feels a connection to that one that he doesn't feel to the songs you mention.
John's cutting down of George as songwriter, (including quotes you didn't mention, "He was working with two fooking brilliant songwriters," and, "When George asked me to help him with his songs, I thought, 'oh, no, now I've got to help him, too,'") and his lack of feeling of obligation toward George are consistent to me, too. John felt that everything George had, he owed to John, and he was lucky to get it.
I see your point that this element of their dynamic is not represented in Scorsese's film, but in a way, maybe Scorsese's portrayal is the next best thing to the truth. At least he shows an intensity of feeling between the two men, which to me is more true to their dynamic than thinking of them as "mates," then puzzling over John's cruelty or failure to give George his due respect.
***
I'm glad to hear that Ringo strikes the final note, because again, I'm more interested in that relationship than many of the others. I'm looking forward to seeing this doc for myself, even more now after reading your review, so thanks, as always, for sharing it.
I personally think of it as more defining for George than his marriages.
Well, I would beg to disagree re: the second marriage, but undoubtedly the relationship with John was one of the most important of George's life, and yes, very much helped defining him. My problem with the depiction is neither that it's given importance - which it more than deserves - nor that the supportive part of it is shown/heard of, because I don't see John supporting George in some cases and cutting him down in others as mutually exclusive, either. My problem is that by leaving out anything even remotely unpleasant or dark about it, it paints a false picture. (And btw also loses some of its intensity. That 70s meltdown May Pang described was the one that convinced me John actually cared a lot for George beyond considering him a handy divorce tool.) So far from being "the next best thing to the truth", it struck me as as much connected to the truth as, say, the film Help! is to the Beatles actual lives.
Which actually brings me back to the way Scorsese dealt, or didn't, with the marriage to Pattie. No, I don't think that even at their giggling honeymooning closest, Pattie was as important to George as John (or for that matter the other Beatles). But I do think that marriage makes several important points about George. First of all that it happened (the only one of the first marriages without a pregnancy triggering it), because I found that newsclip of George declaring they married "because that's what adult people do" very illuminating of George's issues of being the youngest in the group and need to be taken seriously. (It doesn't appear in Scorsese's documentary. See what I mean?) (I also think it's interesting that he asked Paul to be his best man, when he was undoubtedly closer to John and Ringo at that point, but that's a side issue not necessary for the documentary.) Second of all the way it fell apart, because it is telling of George's passive-aggressiveness (a trait that also showed up elsewhere, i.e. in the studio, but that's not seen, either, apart from the legendary "whatever it is that'll please you I'll do it! argument), capability of cruel behaviour of his own, and then, once the divorce is over, the fact he could also be kind and considerate (being more emotionally available to Pattie post divorce than he ever was during the last years of the marriage). If you want an illustration of George's bad and good sides, as opposed to just mentioning "he was very torn" and then showing only the good sides, that would have been an excellent example.
Lastly: having just listed It's Only A Northern Song as one of the worst Beatles songs elsewhere, I agree with you and John (and George Martin, who rejected it for Pepper and told George to bring him something else, ergo Within You Without You) that it was crappy. (I Me Mine and While My Guitar Gently Weeps are good, though.) But again: if Scorsese had dealt with that - that some of George's songs really weren't misunderstood masterpieces and more emotional venting in the John and Paul direction without employing the skills others show when he does that - he'd have had to get into the darker aspects, which he was determined not to, sadly for me.
This is very interesting - you're probably right that the fanboy element plus the Olivia element ended up removing that nuance from Scorsese's character study. I can't wait until my partner opens the DVD that Santa ordered for her from the UK. :-)
Again, I'm with him there :-). Partly joking, but actually, I think John/George had an intensity and complexity that is better understood if you compare it to a family or romantic relationship, and I personally think of it as more defining for George than his marriages.
[ On the minus side, hearing Yoko tell how John supported Something being released as a single and was so supportive of George in general leaves you - or rather, me - feeling I've slipped into an alternate reality, because in the universe with those pesky books I've read come from, John couldn't be bothered to show up for recording While My Guitar Gently Weeps on the White Album (despite the fact George was there for him during Revolution Number 9 on the same album), John thought Only A Northern Song was such crap he refused to play or sing on it and wandered about the studio while Paul and George did take after take after take, John was openly scornful of I Me Mine in January 1969 when they recorded it the first time and couldn't be bothered to participate when they re-recorded it in January 1970.]
Well, Yoko probably does not grasp the complexity of John/George, so in that way, she does live in an alternate universe, but I do live in a universe where John's support of "Something," and other types of support of George is consistent with his total disregard for the things you mention. "I, Me, Mine," "Only a Northern Song," and "While My Guitar Gently Weeps," are all direct complaints about other people who think of themselves and each other and ignore/devalue George. If I hear them as being about John and Paul, I'm sure John could have heard them that way, too. (And "OaNS" IS very crappy musically, IMO.). "Something," on the other hand, is a love song that owes a lot to John's influence, to say the least. A supposed love song with a chorus of uncertainty, "I don't know, I don't know!", an implication that the singer will be somehow forced to part with the beloved, and a declaration of religious-style "belief" in the lover is SO like John's unique approach. Even Frank Sinatra feels the song owes a lot to John and Paul, quipping that it's his "favorite Lennon/McCartney song." John also refers back to it in "I'm Losing You:" "I don't wanna lose ya now," so he clearly feels a connection to that one that he doesn't feel to the songs you mention.
John's cutting down of George as songwriter, (including quotes you didn't mention, "He was working with two fooking brilliant songwriters," and, "When George asked me to help him with his songs, I thought, 'oh, no, now I've got to help him, too,'") and his lack of feeling of obligation toward George are consistent to me, too. John felt that everything George had, he owed to John, and he was lucky to get it.
I see your point that this element of their dynamic is not represented in Scorsese's film, but in a way, maybe Scorsese's portrayal is the next best thing to the truth. At least he shows an intensity of feeling between the two men, which to me is more true to their dynamic than thinking of them as "mates," then puzzling over John's cruelty or failure to give George his due respect.
***
I'm glad to hear that Ringo strikes the final note, because again, I'm more interested in that relationship than many of the others. I'm looking forward to seeing this doc for myself, even more now after reading your review, so thanks, as always, for sharing it.
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Well, I would beg to disagree re: the second marriage, but undoubtedly the relationship with John was one of the most important of George's life, and yes, very much helped defining him. My problem with the depiction is neither that it's given importance - which it more than deserves - nor that the supportive part of it is shown/heard of, because I don't see John supporting George in some cases and cutting him down in others as mutually exclusive, either. My problem is that by leaving out anything even remotely unpleasant or dark about it, it paints a false picture. (And btw also loses some of its intensity. That 70s meltdown May Pang described was the one that convinced me John actually cared a lot for George beyond considering him a handy divorce tool.) So far from being "the next best thing to the truth", it struck me as as much connected to the truth as, say, the film Help! is to the Beatles actual lives.
Which actually brings me back to the way Scorsese dealt, or didn't, with the marriage to Pattie. No, I don't think that even at their giggling honeymooning closest, Pattie was as important to George as John (or for that matter the other Beatles). But I do think that marriage makes several important points about George. First of all that it happened (the only one of the first marriages without a pregnancy triggering it), because I found that newsclip of George declaring they married "because that's what adult people do" very illuminating of George's issues of being the youngest in the group and need to be taken seriously. (It doesn't appear in Scorsese's documentary. See what I mean?) (I also think it's interesting that he asked Paul to be his best man, when he was undoubtedly closer to John and Ringo at that point, but that's a side issue not necessary for the documentary.) Second of all the way it fell apart, because it is telling of George's passive-aggressiveness (a trait that also showed up elsewhere, i.e. in the studio, but that's not seen, either, apart from the legendary "whatever it is that'll please you I'll do it! argument), capability of cruel behaviour of his own, and then, once the divorce is over, the fact he could also be kind and considerate (being more emotionally available to Pattie post divorce than he ever was during the last years of the marriage). If you want an illustration of George's bad and good sides, as opposed to just mentioning "he was very torn" and then showing only the good sides, that would have been an excellent example.
Lastly: having just listed It's Only A Northern Song as one of the worst Beatles songs elsewhere, I agree with you and John (and George Martin, who rejected it for Pepper and told George to bring him something else, ergo Within You Without You) that it was crappy. (I Me Mine and While My Guitar Gently Weeps are good, though.) But again: if Scorsese had dealt with that - that some of George's songs really weren't misunderstood masterpieces and more emotional venting in the John and Paul direction without employing the skills others show when he does that - he'd have had to get into the darker aspects, which he was determined not to, sadly for me.
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