Shadow of the Templar discussion post
In the interest of not cluttering up my flaily OMG the final Shadow of the Templar book is up!!! post with spoilers, I decided I'd start a new thread to discuss the final book (and anything else related to the series). I know there are a few of you out there who haven't finished yet, but feel free to drop by and join the discussion as soon as you
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I can't even begin to express how much I loved it. The ending in particular, mainly because I was half expecting there to be some sort of big declaration, but then there wasn't, and while on the one hand that was incredibly frustrating, in the other it was so true to the characters it took my breath away. Throughout the whole thing their actions have spoken louder than their words, and that was carried through until the end.
My God, when Bran shot Jeremy it was almost like a physical blow, because the things he'd started to say made it seem like he might be going off the rails, and I've read too much of A Song of Ice and Fire to not keep in mind that bad things can happen to favourite characters. I don't think I'd have recovered from that, if it had happened.
I just...LOVE. I can't discuss it coherently right now. When it's available as a combined volume from Lulu I'm buying it straight away. That girl deserves some reward for the incredible story she's crafted.
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The ending in particular, mainly because I was half expecting there to be some sort of big declaration, but then there wasn't, and while on the one hand that was incredibly frustrating, in the other it was so true to the characters it took my breath away. Throughout the whole thing their actions have spoken louder than their words, and that was carried through until the end.
Yes! I know exactly what you mean. Throughout the series I occasionally found myself wishing these two would do something a little more traditionally romantic (like sometimes when one of them is feeling bad about something I want the other to just HUG him already!), but I'm always glad the author didn't go there because that's not who these characters are, and I do love them for that in the end.
Anyway, Simon's actions in the last part really were a big declaration in Simon/Jeremy speak. :-)
What is A Song of Ice and Fire?
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Anyway, Simon's actions in the last part really were a big declaration in Simon/Jeremy speak. :-)
Yes, exactly, and I meant to say that in my first comment and got sidetracked - if Simon wanted to show Jeremy how much he meant to him, that was definitely the way to do it. The only way for him to be more explicit would have been to actually say the words, but of course he wasn't going to do that. :)
I also wished for things to be a bit more traditional, if only because it's perfectly clear throughout how much they care about each other. But then like you I'm kind of glad it wasn't like that - for all the time I was expecting the big declaration I couldn't decide whether I'd be thrilled if it happened or disappointed. I know now that I would have been disappointed.
Haveing said that, however, I often wanted to shake both of them until their teeth rattled. Stupid, stubborn men!
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Yikes, that does sound traumatic! I was about 90% sure that Jeremy was going to be okay because the thrust of the previous books had always been toward a happy ending and (perhaps even more so) because it's unimaginable that he wouldn't be. He's like the cat with nine lives. (Sort of how unimaginable it was that he would have been arrested, as I feared he had been early in the story!)
I love him too. God, do I love Jeremy. The word that always comes to my mind to describe him is "delicious." :-)
Haveing said that, however, I often wanted to shake both of them until their teeth rattled. Stupid, stubborn men!
I KNOW. If they would just use their words once in a while, they could have avoided ever so much grief!
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I KNOW. If they would just use their words once in a while, they could have avoided ever so much grief!
Exactly. Stupid boys!
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Throughout the first three books I was under the impression that Jeremy cared a little more for Simon than Simon did for Jeremy. I think Jeremy didn't make his real feelings known because he sensed Simon wasn't quite so involved. But in the last book, I had the impression it was almost the other way around.
I wondered if the report of Jeremy being caught shook Simon out of his complacency. Maybe he thought Jeremy would always be there.
And then when he turned up to help Jeremy, Jeremy was quite cool. That might have made Simon wake up a little more. If something's unavailable, I think Simon would want it all the more.
I noticed the writer had Simon making more of the first movies in the last book, and being a little more open to affection than in the first three. My feelings were that Jeremy was the one to initiate most of the action in the early books.
Then of course, Simon had the epiphany after Jeremy virtually walked away. He still couldn't bring himself to say the words, but I think both of them realised the other's feelings by the very end of the last book. Finally, they're on the same wavelength!
I'd love to hear your thoughts about this, and yours too, secretsolitaire.
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I agree with you that Jeremy was the one pushing things forward in the other books, and that he might have felt more at the beginning stages than Simon. However, I always felt that Jeremy kept his feelings to himself more because of Simon's issues with being gay than because he thought Simon was less involved. I think things come to a head in the final book because in that one Simon's actions are much more at odds with his words than they've ever been before, and yet he just won't admit that he's there mainly because of his feelings, not because of the responsibility he feels. It's perfectly understandable that Jeremy gets tired of the charade.
I agree that by the end they'd come to an understanding. Jeremy had to know that by finally telling everyone, Simon was doing the best he could to acknowledge Jeremy's importance in his life. Finally!
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Yes, I think this is spot on! I think Jeremy is remarkably patient with Simon's bluster and denial throughout the first three books because a) he understands how important Simon's job is to him and b) Simon gives him (non-verbal) evidence that he does care about him deep down. I think in generally Jeremy actually likes it when Simon's being a little challenging. More interesting that way.
But after what happened with Annabelle, which was Simon showing with his actions that he doesn't trust Jeremy (and that Jeremy can't trust him), I think things changed for Jeremy. He didn't have the energy or desire to coddle Simon anymore, and with so many other challenges in his life he had no patience for Simon's lack of honesty (with himself, with his team, and with Jeremy).
Ahh. I could think about these guys all day. In fact, lately I have been. ;-)
Have a safe trip, hon!
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I'm very much enjoying reading all of Book 4 more leisurely this time around. As much as I needed to race through it the first time (and then re-read certain chapters a couple of times over), it's nice to go slowly through each page, picking up nuances of Simon and Jeremy's relationship that I may have missed the first time. ♥
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I've been reading bits and pieces of book 4 this week but haven't had a chance to reread slowly through the whole thing. (I definitely raced through it too.) Maybe in the new year I'll have some time.
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Jeremy's face slammed shut on the instant. "Just a moment," he called back, his voice perfectly, heartbreakingly normal.
I think the word "heartbreakingly" suggests that Simon may finally realize (even if it's not till later, when he's turning the memory of this kiss over in his mind) the strength of Jeremy's feelings for him and the effort it must take to hide them -- and the unfairness of Jeremy having to do so.
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Jeremy is always hiding his feelings, and it's about time Simon allowed him to drop his defences ... if only Mike hadn't thumped on the door!
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ARGH, I know! Right before they're interrupted Jeremy is looking up at Simon and he could be about to say anything, but we'll never know...
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Hmm, I hadn't thought about it in quite that way, that Simon is making more of the moves in the fourth book, but you're right. (Interestingly, I think things tend to go better when Jeremy takes the initiative -- he's a little bit more graceful than poor Simon, who seems a bit out of his element.) And I definitely think you're right that Simon was taking Jeremy for granted a bit, and that Jeremy suddenly being a) in danger and b) a little harder to get made Simon wake the hell up.
I'm not 100% sure I agree that Jeremy cared more for Simon than vice versa for the first three books; in the beginning, sure, but I think by book three there are signs that Simon cares for Jeremy a lot more than he's willing to admit, way down under all the layers of denial. (The first example that springs to mind is Simon mumbling something about wanting Jeremy to be there in his hospital room when he's all doped up on drugs.) I always sort of got the impression that Jeremy knew Simon cared for him in his own emotionally stunted way, but he also had a realistic idea of what Simon would be willing to admit to and what Simon would be willing to accept in terms of affection from him. I think Jeremy was letting things progress as slowly as Simon needed them to, always pushing a little but never too far.
Obviously it was a balancing act, and one that he simply didn't have the energy or patience for in the fourth book after Simon lets him down so spectacularly with Annabelle. After that, I wonder if Jeremy did start to doubt Simon's feelings a bit more, since obviously Simon's behavior showed that even after two years he still didn't trust Jeremy (and that Jeremy couldn't necessarily count on him).
I really like what rian219 says above about the mismatch between Simon's words and his actions. I think it's spot on, especially given the conversation Simon has with Ethan in which Ethan finally gets Simon to admit he's helping Jeremy because he cares for him. It just takes Simon a while to admit it to Jeremy too.
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