The superhero comics industry, in response.
In response to this: http://alexds1.tumblr.com/post/11168740792/unpopular-opinion by Der-shing, artist and writer of the popular The Meek and followup posts. Mostly for my own archival purposes, but feel free to read if you are into that kind of thing.
Some background on the topic: A lot of people are getting angry about the new starfire comic, and coupled with that recent thing about some guy dismissing a female fan at a convention....
(I am darkzerowolf)
[04:35] darkzerowolf: Sigh. Der-shing's new tumblr posts strike me as particularly petty and show that she doesn't have much self-restraint. I guess no one can be perfect, but it's a little disappointing to find out that she's this imperfect.
[04:37] heysawbones: I think she's having a bit of a uh, day today.
[04:40] darkzerowolf: I don't really have an opinion about her opinions - but she's uh. Handled this rather badly. And I thought she was better than that. Suppose not!
[04:42] heysawbones: It is a little frustrating. I don't have strong feelings about it, though.
[04:44] heysawbones: I am trying to do that uh, whole giving people leeway thing. It's not what I would have done, but not everybody is me, so.
[04:47] heysawbones: Are you this anon question in my inbox?
[04:47] darkzerowolf: nope
[04:48] heysawbones: It's very topical!
[04:48] darkzerowolf: oh yeah? I accept the compliement then
[04:50] heysawbones: someone just asked me what I think about the depiction fo female superheroes in comcis
[04:51] darkzerowolf: oh, ahahaha. What do you think?
[04:52] heysawbones: It's just not something I've ever cared about. Is it culturally relevant? Sure, but not... not in the way it's being portrayed, I don't think.
[04:53] darkzerowolf: Oh, as portrayed by the naysayers, you mean.
[04:53] heysawbones: The extent of my concern is laughing at terrible superhero costumes. Because by god, they are terrible 99.9% of the time.
[04:54] darkzerowolf: Sure. Well. You have to understand that in social theory, if you're not offended then you are sitting from a place of privilege.
[04:55] heysawbones: I am aware of that.
[04:55] heysawbones: I am totally sitting in a place of privilege.It's a place of not caring about superhero comics becaus I'm not the audience.
[04:55] darkzerowolf: Of course.
[04:55] heysawbones: And I have no right to control the content of that product.
[04:55] heysawbones: It's not for me. It's totally within someone else's rights to enjoy really trashy, demeaning bullshit. For better or for worse. I don't feel threatened by it. If someone is really into the gross way women are depicted in a lot of superhero comics, it's almost like a warning sign, actually. I'm like oh, look, a gross person.
[04:56] darkzerowolf: But I'm sure you wouldn't dismiss those concerns publicly for your own convenience.
[04:57] darkzerowolf: Sure. The female depictions in comics are a leftover from a different age, I think.
[04:57] heysawbones: No, not that way. I don't think D [Der-shing] has the articulation and control I do either, though. It takes a certain bullshit mastery to say exactly what she said, far less offensively.
[04:59] darkzerowolf: idk I don't think it's okay to say "Hey guys I don't think you should be offended and I'm tired of you guys being offended you are cluttering my dashboard" in any terms.
[04:59] heysawbones: I think if I were going to say that, I would have painted it from an anti-consumerism angle: "Have you thought about the significance of hinging so much self-worth and identity on this grade of product, or on products, period?"
[04:59] heysawbones: Which is what I think what D is saying boils down to, when all the angst is stripped away. It's also better to pose those ideas as questions and not as declarative statements. IMO.
[05:00] heysawbones: Anyway, I don't think it's wrong to be offended either. I mean, I'm offended. My tastes are offended. That's why I don't read that shit. Or associate with the people who are really, really into that shit.
[05:01] darkzerowolf: entirely possible but long time fans (who many of these people are) do have the right to be offended i think it is important to communicate with institutions that you care about, no matter what you are a fan of.
[05:01] heysawbones: I have to admit to not understanding how, or why they are fans. Superhero comics have never really... not been what they are. I mean, in a sense they are trashier than they were, but in other ways, they used to be worse.
[05:02] heysawbones: So it's like... yes, maybe you are offended, and of course one has the right to be, but it's not like this is new.
[05:02] heysawbones: And clearly many many years of informing said institution have not helped.
[05:02] heysawbones: Stop buying the products.
[05:03] heysawbones: I donht' think my opinion is authoritative, though.
[05:03] heysawbones: It's purely the perspective of a non-fan.
[05:03] darkzerowolf: Eh. I disagree. I understand what you are saying though.
[05:04] heysawbones: Based entirely on the actions I personally have chosen to take, in order to avoid being irritated by a thing I find tasteless (IE,s uperhero comics in general)
[05:04] heysawbones: I think I tried to express this once, but to me, the idea is this: the way women are depicted in superhero comcis is NOT going to fundamentally change until we get rid of all the editors, etc. perpetuating the industry as-is.
[05:04] heysawbones: The people who create those female characters are the same as the ones who create the males.
[05:05] heysawbones: Until you get rid of people who create that kind of male, you're stuck with that kind of female.
[05:05] heysawbones: Because they are really tasteless people.
[05:05] heysawbones: That's why they make thatk ind of comic.
[05:05] heysawbones: It's just not in them to make better things.
[05:06] darkzerowolf: Sure.
[05:07] heysawbones: Do you ever wonder if the comic industry is actually intentionally killing itself?
[05:07] heysawbones: (tangential, sort of, but not entirely)
[05:07] darkzerowolf: ahahahahhaha.
[05:07] darkzerowolf: I think it's doing fine, especially with the new marvel movies.
[05:08] heysawbones: Sometimes I wonder if IP holders like Marvel and DC are actually pulling a 90s stunt on purpose in order to kill off print media and convert their properties entirely to film.
[05:08] heysawbones: Film being a lot more profitable.
[05:08] darkzerowolf: Maybe the comics industry is killing itself.
[05:09] heysawbones: You'd think it would explain a lot of this stuff, right? Like, for instance, I have really low expectations of the taste level in superhero comics, but
[05:09] heysawbones: I mean, a lot of peopel who are upset with x, y, z in comics... they have money! And you'd think there would be a way to meet in the middle and compromise the needs of the audience. But DC at least is unabashedly not doing that.
[05:12] darkzerowolf: Oh well, I have to admit that it's not really something I will regret to see pass.
[05:14] heysawbones: Interestingly, I don't think it will kill independents.
[05:15] darkzerowolf: maybe they're just trying to squeeze as much money out of their comics before it dies.
Some background on the topic: A lot of people are getting angry about the new starfire comic, and coupled with that recent thing about some guy dismissing a female fan at a convention....
(I am darkzerowolf)
[04:35] darkzerowolf: Sigh. Der-shing's new tumblr posts strike me as particularly petty and show that she doesn't have much self-restraint. I guess no one can be perfect, but it's a little disappointing to find out that she's this imperfect.
[04:37] heysawbones: I think she's having a bit of a uh, day today.
[04:40] darkzerowolf: I don't really have an opinion about her opinions - but she's uh. Handled this rather badly. And I thought she was better than that. Suppose not!
[04:42] heysawbones: It is a little frustrating. I don't have strong feelings about it, though.
[04:44] heysawbones: I am trying to do that uh, whole giving people leeway thing. It's not what I would have done, but not everybody is me, so.
[04:47] heysawbones: Are you this anon question in my inbox?
[04:47] darkzerowolf: nope
[04:48] heysawbones: It's very topical!
[04:48] darkzerowolf: oh yeah? I accept the compliement then
[04:50] heysawbones: someone just asked me what I think about the depiction fo female superheroes in comcis
[04:51] darkzerowolf: oh, ahahaha. What do you think?
[04:52] heysawbones: It's just not something I've ever cared about. Is it culturally relevant? Sure, but not... not in the way it's being portrayed, I don't think.
[04:53] darkzerowolf: Oh, as portrayed by the naysayers, you mean.
[04:53] heysawbones: The extent of my concern is laughing at terrible superhero costumes. Because by god, they are terrible 99.9% of the time.
[04:54] darkzerowolf: Sure. Well. You have to understand that in social theory, if you're not offended then you are sitting from a place of privilege.
[04:55] heysawbones: I am aware of that.
[04:55] heysawbones: I am totally sitting in a place of privilege.It's a place of not caring about superhero comics becaus I'm not the audience.
[04:55] darkzerowolf: Of course.
[04:55] heysawbones: And I have no right to control the content of that product.
[04:55] heysawbones: It's not for me. It's totally within someone else's rights to enjoy really trashy, demeaning bullshit. For better or for worse. I don't feel threatened by it. If someone is really into the gross way women are depicted in a lot of superhero comics, it's almost like a warning sign, actually. I'm like oh, look, a gross person.
[04:56] darkzerowolf: But I'm sure you wouldn't dismiss those concerns publicly for your own convenience.
[04:57] darkzerowolf: Sure. The female depictions in comics are a leftover from a different age, I think.
[04:57] heysawbones: No, not that way. I don't think D [Der-shing] has the articulation and control I do either, though. It takes a certain bullshit mastery to say exactly what she said, far less offensively.
[04:59] darkzerowolf: idk I don't think it's okay to say "Hey guys I don't think you should be offended and I'm tired of you guys being offended you are cluttering my dashboard" in any terms.
[04:59] heysawbones: I think if I were going to say that, I would have painted it from an anti-consumerism angle: "Have you thought about the significance of hinging so much self-worth and identity on this grade of product, or on products, period?"
[04:59] heysawbones: Which is what I think what D is saying boils down to, when all the angst is stripped away. It's also better to pose those ideas as questions and not as declarative statements. IMO.
[05:00] heysawbones: Anyway, I don't think it's wrong to be offended either. I mean, I'm offended. My tastes are offended. That's why I don't read that shit. Or associate with the people who are really, really into that shit.
[05:01] darkzerowolf: entirely possible but long time fans (who many of these people are) do have the right to be offended i think it is important to communicate with institutions that you care about, no matter what you are a fan of.
[05:01] heysawbones: I have to admit to not understanding how, or why they are fans. Superhero comics have never really... not been what they are. I mean, in a sense they are trashier than they were, but in other ways, they used to be worse.
[05:02] heysawbones: So it's like... yes, maybe you are offended, and of course one has the right to be, but it's not like this is new.
[05:02] heysawbones: And clearly many many years of informing said institution have not helped.
[05:02] heysawbones: Stop buying the products.
[05:03] heysawbones: I donht' think my opinion is authoritative, though.
[05:03] heysawbones: It's purely the perspective of a non-fan.
[05:03] darkzerowolf: Eh. I disagree. I understand what you are saying though.
[05:04] heysawbones: Based entirely on the actions I personally have chosen to take, in order to avoid being irritated by a thing I find tasteless (IE,s uperhero comics in general)
[05:04] heysawbones: I think I tried to express this once, but to me, the idea is this: the way women are depicted in superhero comcis is NOT going to fundamentally change until we get rid of all the editors, etc. perpetuating the industry as-is.
[05:04] heysawbones: The people who create those female characters are the same as the ones who create the males.
[05:05] heysawbones: Until you get rid of people who create that kind of male, you're stuck with that kind of female.
[05:05] heysawbones: Because they are really tasteless people.
[05:05] heysawbones: That's why they make thatk ind of comic.
[05:05] heysawbones: It's just not in them to make better things.
[05:06] darkzerowolf: Sure.
[05:07] heysawbones: Do you ever wonder if the comic industry is actually intentionally killing itself?
[05:07] heysawbones: (tangential, sort of, but not entirely)
[05:07] darkzerowolf: ahahahahhaha.
[05:07] darkzerowolf: I think it's doing fine, especially with the new marvel movies.
[05:08] heysawbones: Sometimes I wonder if IP holders like Marvel and DC are actually pulling a 90s stunt on purpose in order to kill off print media and convert their properties entirely to film.
[05:08] heysawbones: Film being a lot more profitable.
[05:08] darkzerowolf: Maybe the comics industry is killing itself.
[05:09] heysawbones: You'd think it would explain a lot of this stuff, right? Like, for instance, I have really low expectations of the taste level in superhero comics, but
[05:09] heysawbones: I mean, a lot of peopel who are upset with x, y, z in comics... they have money! And you'd think there would be a way to meet in the middle and compromise the needs of the audience. But DC at least is unabashedly not doing that.
[05:12] darkzerowolf: Oh well, I have to admit that it's not really something I will regret to see pass.
[05:14] heysawbones: Interestingly, I don't think it will kill independents.
[05:15] darkzerowolf: maybe they're just trying to squeeze as much money out of their comics before it dies.