Sue?! What Sue!
anonymous
April 14 2005, 00:43:40 UTC
>writing believable action is one of my weakest points
I have a theory about that. Writing is inherently an artistic verbal activity. To write huge complex space battles a la Mike Stackpole takes excellent visual skills, which you'd tend to find in scientific types. You don't often find individuals who are really talented in both fields, so don't be too hard on yourself there. Besides, lots of detailed diagrammatic writing interrupts the flow of a story - there are times in the novels where I have to stop and draw mental diagrams to work out who's where and how they did whatever, at which point I lose the plot and have to re-read. Silly me!
As for Anlia, you can't really call her Sue-ish at all. As you said, Mary Sue would fearlessly defy the Imperial stormtroopers, possess a medical degree so she could heroically save Tycho's life, not to mention having Iella Wessiri's innate Intel ability so as to fool her Dad with a neat story. Far from sympathising with the Rebels, she would have led the local Rebel cell, hatching a daring plan to blow up whatever-it-was, neatly allowing her to blame herself with much angst when it all went Pete Tong and her sister was killed. As a result, she'd selflessly put her family above her own wants, and she'd *never* argue with Senno who would no doubt consider her the coolest, way superior to his own Mum, he'd probably not even miss her. She'd definitely possess a working fighter (and possibly a spare for Tycho, although she'd *have* to fly lead, cause he's injured), the latest research model, so advanced the 181st have no idea it exists, and done up in a rather fetching pink/purple colour scheme so as to bring out the alluring violet quality of her eyes. She'd mastermind their escape off-planet single-handedly, earning the admiration and gratitude of the entire Alliance, and blowing that two-bit strumpet Winter straight out of the water. At which point she'd throw a huge party, Wedge would beg her to join the Rogues, and Farmboy would show up to inform her that she has tremendous Jedi potential. Oh, and amazing hair, a beautiful singing voice and a physique that would probably be best described as 'willowy'.
The short version: you have absolutely *no* Sue worries. :) Now, if only I could write that much for my essays!
Kim Just don't even get me *started* on Corran 'Marty Stue' Horn ;)
Re: Sue?! What Sue!sea_wrenApril 15 2005, 00:33:36 UTC
I have a theory about that. Writing is inherently an artistic verbal activity. To write huge complex space battles a la Mike Stackpole takes excellent visual skills, which you'd tend to find in scientific types. You don't often find individuals who are really talented in both fields, so don't be too hard on yourself there.
That's a very good point. And it's reminded me that I am not a real visual person-- big example, when I'm assembling something I follow the written instructions, even if poorly worded, rather than the diagram.
snipped Sue description This had me laughing like crazy!
When the girl is as bad as you describe, then slap her with a Sue label for sure! But I get just as bothered by the people who as soon as they see a female original character start squawking, "Mary Sue! Mary Sue!"
Besides, lots of detailed diagrammatic writing interrupts the flow of a story - there are times in the novels where I have to stop and draw mental diagrams to work out who's where and how they did whatever, at which point I lose the plot and have to re-read. Silly me!
Confession time: I really like Mike's writing, and I will forever revere him for creating a whole wonderful series about WEDGE. But :::whispers::: I skim his battle scenes. It's enough for me to know that Wedge is a kick-ass pilot, and the other Rogues are good-to-great and holding their own against unsurmountable odds. I don't need to know all the ups, downs, and barrel-rolls. Probably because I don't play video games. And I've tried, mainly with the X-wing game. Just not my thing, though I do enjoy watching someone who's very good at the game whip through it vaping eyeballs!
Just don't even get me *started* on Corran 'Marty Stue' Horn ;)
Me either! LOL, I once wrote a little essay entitled "Why I Believe Mr. Mike doth Protest Too Much", and it outlined my case for Corran as a projection (not a total self-insert) Stu.
Though really, what irks me most about Corran is the way he right away becomes Wedge's best buddy. I can't remember the exact scenes, it's been awhile since I've re-read X-wing, but it's before Corran hooked up with Wedge's "sister" Mirax, and it's far more than a respectful commander-subordinate dynamic.
Star Wars is full of extraordinarily talented people, so Corran being an ace investigator/pilot/Jedi didn't bother me so much as the instant friendship with a man who just got done reflecting that it took him six months to call Celchu "Tycho".
Re: Sue?! What Sue!
anonymous
April 24 2005, 02:03:29 UTC
>snipped Sue description >This had me laughing like crazy!
Really?! *the mind boggles* I should apologise for that, I think. The ranting got a tad out of hand. Although you *know* that the story of Silvriana the Wonder-Sue and her Amazing Purple Prototype actually exists somewhere out there, *exactly* as described. With rave reviews from nine year olds, no doubt. Tragic.
>Though really, what irks me most about Corran is the way he right >away becomes Wedge's best buddy. I can't remember the exact scenes, >it's been awhile since I've re-read X-wing, but it's before Corran >hooked up with Wedge's "sister" Mirax, and it's far more than a >respectful commander-subordinate dynamic.
I think its the bit where they go off and leave Corran-Stu to 'certain death' and Wedge reflects on how Corran has somehow gotten under his defences that really annoys me. I should probably say here that I love Mike's stories before I start to criticize and sound like the evil uber-nasty. I'll also admit that I can't do better than him - after all, there's a reason why he's a best-selling author. That said, *deeep breath* I thought that Wedge was severely mis-characterised here. Mike went to the trouble of telling us readers about Wedge's tendency to block out new pilots: that, I understand and agree with - since he sees a lot of death, some of which he is responsible for, emotional barriers prevent some of the pain he would otherwise have to deal with. BUT, Mike creates these barriers, then knocks them down by stating that Corran got close anyway. Yes, I understand he was trying to make Corran seem special, but he could have done that any number of ways... having Corran save Wedge's life (why not, he saves just about everyone else's), or vice-versa, or getting them together to talk about something really personal (they have enough back-story to be going on with) - anything, really. That or he should have left out the bit about Wedge's reticence toward new pilots - we know he gives a serious monkeys about his pilots Mike, you don't have to tell us why!
And if *that* makes any sense... :D
Oh yes, and the way it's *always* Corran who saves the day. At Borleias, on Coruscant, against that Lancer-class frigate, in fire-fights, ya-de-ya-de-ya. And the way Isard has this personal vendetta against Corran specifically, what did he *do*? And is it just me, but in a squadron with serious possible security concerns, albeit very very hot and good-looking ones, would Whistler *really* be allowed to keep his high level programming in place?
And to think I asked you *not* to get me started... sorry! Moving swiftly on...
I know its off-topic, but congrats to your brother. Random, yes, I know. *throws confetti* :)
Re: Sue?! What Sue!sea_wrenApril 24 2005, 19:31:39 UTC
>snipped Sue description >This had me laughing like crazy!
Really?! *the mind boggles* I should apologise for that, I think. The ranting got a tad out of hand. Although you *know* that the story of Silvriana the Wonder-Sue and her Amazing Purple Prototype actually exists somewhere out there, *exactly* as described. With rave reviews from nine year olds, no doubt. Tragic.
It made me laugh because I read a very similar Rogue Squadron story years ago on ff.n. The lead character was a pilot, former Wraith infiltrator, Jedi, and Wedge's little sister. She was dating a canon character (Pash, I think), best friends with Han & Luke, told General Cracken how to gather Intel... and so on.
I honestly thought for the first couple chapters that it was a deliberate parody, because it touched on every Mary Sue cliche ever created.
Ahhh, good memories!
I should probably say here that I love Mike's stories before I start to criticize and sound like the evil uber-nasty. I'll also admit that I can't do better than him - after all, there's a reason why he's a best-selling author
I understand-- I love Mike's writing & wish he'd be given the chance to do more in SW. But I also wish that we didn't have to see Wedge from Corran's point of view so much.
Yes, I understand he was trying to make Corran seem special, but he could have done that any number of ways... having Corran save Wedge's life (why not, he saves just about everyone else's), or vice-versa, or getting them together to talk about something really personal (they have enough back-story to be going on with) - anything, really.
Yeah, especially since he's got a ready-made bonding point: Corran falling for Mirax. A few late-night "Look, she's my baby sister more or less, why should I let you near her?" sessions would go a long way toward opening Wedge up in a more natural manner. Personally: I like bottled-up, not-gonna-trust Wedge-- I'm weird that way, yes. It makes it that much more poignant when he breaks down & lets someone in, despite himself. There's that kind of "what if" quality that gets to me: who he would have been if this big-ass galactic war didn't come along & require him to go off & be a mostly unsung hero. Wedge probably would have been your friendly neighborhood gas station attendant, greeting everyone all friendly when they pulled in for a fill-up. Instead, he's got to go off & blow stuff up and send people to their deaths and it changed him. But there's still a part of him that can't treat everyone under his command as just so much cannon fodder. Some of them are going to break through. His future "brother-in-law" would have worked, had Mike set it up that way.
And the way Isard has this personal vendetta against Corran specifically, what did he *do*?
I don't know, why did she switch her focus to him? There are bits in the X-wing books where Isard's talking about going after Rogue Squadron in particular, and she's just so chilling the way she talks about eliminating them-- she calls Wedge "Antilles" in such a cold way, but you just know he's more than the latest opponent to her. He & his skill & his pilots are standing in her way, and it's getting personal with her. Which gives me chills, in a good way! Again, weird, yes, but I like Wedge having to deal with this powerful, sociopathic woman coming after him & his people.
Dunno why exactly, it's just my h/c kink rearing its head.
I know its off-topic, but congrats to your brother. Random, yes, I know. *throws confetti* :)
Aww, thanks! After all the horror of last spring, it's so nice to have something good happen. I like her a lot, I think they'll be so good together.
What *is* a barrel roll anyway?
Lol! Lord, I think it's when a plane (or starfighter) rolls sideways, "length-wise", as if its wings weren't there it would roll like a cigar down a hill. The term probably dates back to early 20th century barn-storming pilots, when barrels where much more prevalant.
Re: Sue?! What Sue!sea_wrenJune 25 2005, 14:59:03 UTC
I once wrote a little essay entitled "Why I Believe Mr. Mike doth Protest Too Much",
This I HAVE to see! *g*
It's around somewhere, probably in one of my boxes of diskettes. I'll have to dig through them; I was wanting to search out something the girls & I did last year, a gag-gift thingy called "Campfire on a Budget" where we wrote up an "instruction sheet" for making a fake campfire with colored cellophane & a flashlight & a bunch of Hershey's S'mores candy bars. And I think it's in the same box as the other.
I have a theory about that. Writing is inherently an artistic verbal activity. To write huge complex space battles a la Mike Stackpole takes excellent visual skills, which you'd tend to find in scientific types. You don't often find individuals who are really talented in both fields, so don't be too hard on yourself there. Besides, lots of detailed diagrammatic writing interrupts the flow of a story - there are times in the novels where I have to stop and draw mental diagrams to work out who's where and how they did whatever, at which point I lose the plot and have to re-read. Silly me!
As for Anlia, you can't really call her Sue-ish at all. As you said, Mary Sue would fearlessly defy the Imperial stormtroopers, possess a medical degree so she could heroically save Tycho's life, not to mention having Iella Wessiri's innate Intel ability so as to fool her Dad with a neat story. Far from sympathising with the Rebels, she would have led the local Rebel cell, hatching a daring plan to blow up whatever-it-was, neatly allowing her to blame herself with much angst when it all went Pete Tong and her sister was killed. As a result, she'd selflessly put her family above her own wants, and she'd *never* argue with Senno who would no doubt consider her the coolest, way superior to his own Mum, he'd probably not even miss her. She'd definitely possess a working fighter (and possibly a spare for Tycho, although she'd *have* to fly lead, cause he's injured), the latest research model, so advanced the 181st have no idea it exists, and done up in a rather fetching pink/purple colour scheme so as to bring out the alluring violet quality of her eyes.
She'd mastermind their escape off-planet single-handedly, earning the admiration and gratitude of the entire Alliance, and blowing that two-bit strumpet Winter straight out of the water. At which point she'd throw a huge party, Wedge would beg her to join the Rogues, and Farmboy would show up to inform her that she has tremendous Jedi potential. Oh, and amazing hair, a beautiful singing voice and a physique that would probably be best described as 'willowy'.
The short version: you have absolutely *no* Sue worries. :)
Now, if only I could write that much for my essays!
Kim
Just don't even get me *started* on Corran 'Marty Stue' Horn ;)
Reply
That's a very good point. And it's reminded me that I am not a real visual person-- big example, when I'm assembling something I follow the written instructions, even if poorly worded, rather than the diagram.
snipped Sue description
This had me laughing like crazy!
When the girl is as bad as you describe, then slap her with a Sue label for sure! But I get just as bothered by the people who as soon as they see a female original character start squawking, "Mary Sue! Mary Sue!"
Besides, lots of detailed diagrammatic writing interrupts the flow of a story - there are times in the novels where I have to stop and draw mental diagrams to work out who's where and how they did whatever, at which point I lose the plot and have to re-read. Silly me!
Confession time: I really like Mike's writing, and I will forever revere him for creating a whole wonderful series about WEDGE. But :::whispers::: I skim his battle scenes. It's enough for me to know that Wedge is a kick-ass pilot, and the other Rogues are good-to-great and holding their own against unsurmountable odds. I don't need to know all the ups, downs, and barrel-rolls.
Probably because I don't play video games. And I've tried, mainly with the X-wing game. Just not my thing, though I do enjoy watching someone who's very good at the game whip through it vaping eyeballs!
Just don't even get me *started* on Corran 'Marty Stue' Horn ;)
Me either! LOL, I once wrote a little essay entitled "Why I Believe Mr. Mike doth Protest Too Much", and it outlined my case for Corran as a projection (not a total self-insert) Stu.
Though really, what irks me most about Corran is the way he right away becomes Wedge's best buddy. I can't remember the exact scenes, it's been awhile since I've re-read X-wing, but it's before Corran hooked up with Wedge's "sister" Mirax, and it's far more than a respectful commander-subordinate dynamic.
Star Wars is full of extraordinarily talented people, so Corran being an ace investigator/pilot/Jedi didn't bother me so much as the instant friendship with a man who just got done reflecting that it took him six months to call Celchu "Tycho".
Reply
>This had me laughing like crazy!
Really?! *the mind boggles* I should apologise for that, I think. The ranting got a tad out of hand. Although you *know* that the story of Silvriana the Wonder-Sue and her Amazing Purple Prototype actually exists somewhere out there, *exactly* as described. With rave reviews from nine year olds, no doubt. Tragic.
>Though really, what irks me most about Corran is the way he right >away becomes Wedge's best buddy. I can't remember the exact scenes, >it's been awhile since I've re-read X-wing, but it's before Corran >hooked up with Wedge's "sister" Mirax, and it's far more than a >respectful commander-subordinate dynamic.
I think its the bit where they go off and leave Corran-Stu to 'certain death' and Wedge reflects on how Corran has somehow gotten under his defences that really annoys me. I should probably say here that I love Mike's stories before I start to criticize and sound like the evil uber-nasty. I'll also admit that I can't do better than him - after all, there's a reason why he's a best-selling author. That said, *deeep breath* I thought that Wedge was severely mis-characterised here. Mike went to the trouble of telling us readers about Wedge's tendency to block out new pilots: that, I understand and agree with - since he sees a lot of death, some of which he is responsible for, emotional barriers prevent some of the pain he would otherwise have to deal with. BUT, Mike creates these barriers, then knocks them down by stating that Corran got close anyway. Yes, I understand he was trying to make Corran seem special, but he could have done that any number of ways... having Corran save Wedge's life (why not, he saves just about everyone else's), or vice-versa, or getting them together to talk about something really personal (they have enough back-story to be going on with) - anything, really. That or he should have left out the bit about Wedge's reticence toward new pilots - we know he gives a serious monkeys about his pilots Mike, you don't have to tell us why!
And if *that* makes any sense... :D
Oh yes, and the way it's *always* Corran who saves the day. At Borleias, on Coruscant, against that Lancer-class frigate, in fire-fights, ya-de-ya-de-ya. And the way Isard has this personal vendetta against Corran specifically, what did he *do*? And is it just me, but in a squadron with serious possible security concerns, albeit very very hot and good-looking ones, would Whistler *really* be allowed to keep his high level programming in place?
And to think I asked you *not* to get me started... sorry! Moving swiftly on...
I know its off-topic, but congrats to your brother. Random, yes, I know. *throws confetti* :)
-Kim -x-
What *is* a barrel roll anyway?
Reply
>This had me laughing like crazy!
Really?! *the mind boggles* I should apologise for that, I think. The ranting got a tad out of hand. Although you *know* that the story of Silvriana the Wonder-Sue and her Amazing Purple Prototype actually exists somewhere out there, *exactly* as described. With rave reviews from nine year olds, no doubt. Tragic.
It made me laugh because I read a very similar Rogue Squadron story years ago on ff.n. The lead character was a pilot, former Wraith infiltrator, Jedi, and Wedge's little sister. She was dating a canon character (Pash, I think), best friends with Han & Luke, told General Cracken how to gather Intel... and so on.
I honestly thought for the first couple chapters that it was a deliberate parody, because it touched on every Mary Sue cliche ever created.
Ahhh, good memories!
I should probably say here that I love Mike's stories before I start to criticize and sound like the evil uber-nasty. I'll also admit that I can't do better than him - after all, there's a reason why he's a best-selling author
I understand-- I love Mike's writing & wish he'd be given the chance to do more in SW. But I also wish that we didn't have to see Wedge from Corran's point of view so much.
Yes, I understand he was trying to make Corran seem special, but he could have done that any number of ways... having Corran save Wedge's life (why not, he saves just about everyone else's), or vice-versa, or getting them together to talk about something really personal (they have enough back-story to be going on with) - anything, really.
Yeah, especially since he's got a ready-made bonding point: Corran falling for Mirax. A few late-night "Look, she's my baby sister more or less, why should I let you near her?" sessions would go a long way toward opening Wedge up in a more natural manner. Personally: I like bottled-up, not-gonna-trust Wedge-- I'm weird that way, yes. It makes it that much more poignant when he breaks down & lets someone in, despite himself. There's that kind of "what if" quality that gets to me: who he would have been if this big-ass galactic war didn't come along & require him to go off & be a mostly unsung hero. Wedge probably would have been your friendly neighborhood gas station attendant, greeting everyone all friendly when they pulled in for a fill-up. Instead, he's got to go off & blow stuff up and send people to their deaths and it changed him. But there's still a part of him that can't treat everyone under his command as just so much cannon fodder. Some of them are going to break through. His future "brother-in-law" would have worked, had Mike set it up that way.
And the way Isard has this personal vendetta against Corran specifically, what did he *do*?
I don't know, why did she switch her focus to him? There are bits in the X-wing books where Isard's talking about going after Rogue Squadron in particular, and she's just so chilling the way she talks about eliminating them-- she calls Wedge "Antilles" in such a cold way, but you just know he's more than the latest opponent to her. He & his skill & his pilots are standing in her way, and it's getting personal with her. Which gives me chills, in a good way! Again, weird, yes, but I like Wedge having to deal with this powerful, sociopathic woman coming after him & his people.
Dunno why exactly, it's just my h/c kink rearing its head.
I know its off-topic, but congrats to your brother. Random, yes, I know. *throws confetti* :)
Aww, thanks! After all the horror of last spring, it's so nice to have something good happen. I like her a lot, I think they'll be so good together.
What *is* a barrel roll anyway?
Lol! Lord, I think it's when a plane (or starfighter) rolls sideways, "length-wise", as if its wings weren't there it would roll like a cigar down a hill. The term probably dates back to early 20th century barn-storming pilots, when barrels where much more prevalant.
Reply
This I HAVE to see! *g*
v. entertaining thread. Count me among the nonfans of Mr. Horn. And I'm a rabid MAS fangirl. :-)
Reply
This I HAVE to see! *g*
It's around somewhere, probably in one of my boxes of diskettes. I'll have to dig through them; I was wanting to search out something the girls & I did last year, a gag-gift thingy called "Campfire on a Budget" where we wrote up an "instruction sheet" for making a fake campfire with colored cellophane & a flashlight & a bunch of Hershey's S'mores candy bars. And I think it's in the same box as the other.
Reply
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