Freb and Bop on Adult Literature

[sartorias]

Freb: So much chatter all over the Internet lately about dark fantasy. Some can't even agree on the definition of dark. Like that book on your shelf there, praised as being so dark. I found it emotionally adolescent in spite of all the hard R kinky sex and torture

Comments

[ex_rolanni]

Bob:...But not everyone is capable of writing about such things well enough to enable everyone to reach that state of exalted clarity. Just as the state of clarity unfortunately doesn’t last.

Fred: That isn’t sufficient excuse not to be trying.

Y'know? Fred has a real problem with wanting to qualify other people's goals for them. Who's gonna punish those Bad Writers who would rather write what they do best, even if it is "adolescent"?

Also, I think I sorta resent the implied judgment here: That writers who are writing books that Fred doesn't approve of somehow aren't trying hard enough; that if they really did just try they could write books that he does approve of.

[coneycat]

Y'know? Fred has a real problem with wanting to qualify other people's goals for them. ... Also, I think I sorta resent the implied judgment here: That writers who are writing books that Fred doesn't approve of somehow aren't trying hard enough...

I totally agree. And I'll add that I'm impatient with people who try to elevate Reading to a higher level than all other leisure pursuits. It can be, but I'm very uncomfortable with the snobbery implicit in the idea that people who read are somehow better than people who don't, or that people wh read Good Books are superior to people who read Sidney Sheldon

[malkingrey]

And my issue is with the use of "YA" as a pejorative. That, and the whole "art as castor oil" approach -- you're not supposed to enjoy it, because it's supposed to be Good For You.

(My own opinion is that if you want spiritual uplift, go to church on Sunday or to synagogue on Saturday or to sabbats on the quarter-days -- or if theism doesn't float your boat, go read Sartre at the public library on whatever day of the week makes you happy -- but don't force art and literature into the job of providing the sort of juice that more properly comes from religion and philosophy.)

[rysmiel]

you're not supposed to enjoy it, because it's supposed to be Good For You.

Annoying as heck, agreed. But how much work is it reasonable to expect readers to do to get to the enjoyment ? There's an upper bound, definitely, but I do not think it's fair to demand that everything written be utterly transparent - it would deny a great part of the enjoyment value of books that unfold and do subtle things of which more shows up with every rereading, for one. The Dragon Waiting is what I think of when I think of this.

if you want spiritual uplift, go to church on Sunday or to synagogue on Saturday or to sabbats on the quarter-days -- or if theism doesn't float your boat, go read Sartre at the public library on whatever day of the week makes you happy -- but don't force art and literature into the job of providing the sort of juice that more properly comes from religion and philosophy.

Not force it, but if you have a decent story that wants to go in that direction, not preclude it either I hope.

[sartorias]

I think those things can be made a part of an enjoyable story, but the entire thrust of it? I don't care if it's Sartre and pomo as all get-out, it's allegory, that is, preaching, and I'd rather read an essay on such matters. Not fiction whose plot, characters, and story is bent to High Purpose.

[rysmiel]

Y'know? Fred has a real problem with wanting to qualify other people's goals for them. Who's gonna punish those Bad Writers who would rather write what they do best, even if it is "adolescent"?

The problem I have with this as an approach is how close it is to the edge of denying that there;'s such a thing as quality at all - which I reject a priori, on the grounds that if there were no such thing as quality, and therefore no way of judging whether one was getting better, writing would just be too damn depressing

[ex_rolanni]

The problem I have with this as an approach is how close it is to the edge of denying that there;'s such a thing as quality at all - which I reject a priori, on the grounds that if there were no such thing as quality, and therefore no way of judging whether one was getting better, writing would just be too damn depressing.

Tcha.

What Fred is saying is that there is only One Sort of Quality: That which is pertinent and uplifting for Fred What I'm saying is that excellence can be found in all things: great, small, comfortable or grotesque. And that Quality is in the eye of the beholder

[jhetley]

Then there's the question of one person's exalted clarity being another person's turgid and opaque. I think I'll stick to telling stories.

[sartorias]

A very good point.

[sartorias]

Yes, excellent point.