One of my major problems with it is a problem with the last few episodes of S5: characterization, particularly choices and motivations. It seemed like there was a shift in the show's themes
I agree. I felt that shift very much. It seemed as if they had a complete change of direction and everything was meant to make us think that what was happening was the only possible thing while there was no rational through-line for it. I also felt the disconnection of Sam saying that he's the less of them all with his absolute certitude that he'd be able to control Lucifer. Of the two one: if Sam believes he's the less of them all what makes him think he could control Lucifer? that plan acme out of nowhere, had no foreshadowing and it was absolutely crazy (and not the good kind, either).
but that he must learn to let Sam grow up or learn to love him for who he is or some such
Oh, i think that for me it was the worst part and even more so with the hypocritical writing of season 6. Let me explain: it seemed to me as if they were flattening Dean and Sam's issues so much and making them all about Dean being too controlling when I had never seen that dynamic. Dean had been rash in his decisions when Sam's well being was at stake, yes, but Sam had been able to emotionally manipulate Dean as well (think of Hunted). To see Sam say that all he did in season 4 was because Dean wasn't letting him grow up made me dislike Sam's characterization so much because season 4 hadn't felt like that at all. It was like Sam couldn't realize that Dean had almost nothing to do with his choices and they were evidences of his flaws/mistakes not of a controlling Dean. That Sam may have preferred Ruby's brand of companionship, a relationship in which he only had superficial power because Ruby was manipulating him, was a slap in the face of Sam's characterization. Apparently all he wanted in a relationship was that kind of deception. I try to ignore Sam ever said that stuff.
That got worse in season 6 for me because after having Dean back off and let Sam make his decision (as heavy-handed and flattening of their issues that was), the writers created a situation in which it's Dean who has to take responsibilities for Sam completely and to the extreme of having to decide death and life situations for him. Sam is just the poor victim. I think of season 6 that's the major disappointment for me. It was like the writers couldn't write anything else but Sam being in need of saving and Dean having to figure out what was wrong with Sam and save him.
Let's ignore the toy soldier, okay? I get what they were trying to do but it was a bad, bad choice.
I also felt the disconnection of Sam saying that he's the less of them all with his absolute certitude that he'd be able to control Lucifer.
Absolutely. Ugh. It was one of the most ridiculous things they could have chosen to do, especially after the extravagant way in which they shut down Dean's choice to say Yes. What, a better option is for someone "they need to let grow up" (of all things) give the Devil his one true vessel? Oh, please. That was all such sloppy writing, I can't even stomach watching most of that arc, to be honest.
To see Sam say that all he did in season 4 was because Dean wasn't letting him grow up made me dislike Sam's characterization so much because season 4 hadn't felt like that at all.
I AM DOING JUMPING JACKS IN MY HEAD FOR HOW MUCH I AGREE WITH THIS COMMENT. Seriously. I remember absolutely loving S4 because it felt as if the show was letting the brothers actually grow up and have a more complex relationship as a natural progression from what they had been through before. Then S5 came along ("Fallen Idols," specifically), and it was like the show pulled the rug out from under the brothers' characterization. Ugh, ugh. I try to block that out of my memory, too.
It was like the writers couldn't write anything else but Sam being in need of saving and Dean having to figure out what was wrong with Sam and save him.
The show's great and obsessive love for this particular storyline is one of its great failures, in my opinion. It's a huge disservice to Sam (forever cornering him in as an object), and what it does (or, rather, doesn't do) for Dean is... so disappointing that I lack words for how much I loathe it.
The toy soldier is happily ignored. A potentially beautiful idea with a horrible, lazy execution.
(I have to run back to work, but I will respond to your next comment soon! <333)
One of my major problems with it is a problem with the last few episodes of S5: characterization, particularly choices and motivations. It seemed like there was a shift in the show's themes
I agree. I felt that shift very much. It seemed as if they had a complete change of direction and everything was meant to make us think that what was happening was the only possible thing while there was no rational through-line for it. I also felt the disconnection of Sam saying that he's the less of them all with his absolute certitude that he'd be able to control Lucifer. Of the two one: if Sam believes he's the less of them all what makes him think he could control Lucifer? that plan acme out of nowhere, had no foreshadowing and it was absolutely crazy (and not the good kind, either).
but that he must learn to let Sam grow up or learn to love him for who he is or some such
Oh, i think that for me it was the worst part and even more so with the hypocritical writing of season 6. Let me explain: it seemed to me as if they were flattening Dean and Sam's issues so much and making them all about Dean being too controlling when I had never seen that dynamic. Dean had been rash in his decisions when Sam's well being was at stake, yes, but Sam had been able to emotionally manipulate Dean as well (think of Hunted). To see Sam say that all he did in season 4 was because Dean wasn't letting him grow up made me dislike Sam's characterization so much because season 4 hadn't felt like that at all. It was like Sam couldn't realize that Dean had almost nothing to do with his choices and they were evidences of his flaws/mistakes not of a controlling Dean. That Sam may have preferred Ruby's brand of companionship, a relationship in which he only had superficial power because Ruby was manipulating him, was a slap in the face of Sam's characterization. Apparently all he wanted in a relationship was that kind of deception. I try to ignore Sam ever said that stuff.
That got worse in season 6 for me because after having Dean back off and let Sam make his decision (as heavy-handed and flattening of their issues that was), the writers created a situation in which it's Dean who has to take responsibilities for Sam completely and to the extreme of having to decide death and life situations for him. Sam is just the poor victim. I think of season 6 that's the major disappointment for me. It was like the writers couldn't write anything else but Sam being in need of saving and Dean having to figure out what was wrong with Sam and save him.
Let's ignore the toy soldier, okay? I get what they were trying to do but it was a bad, bad choice.
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Absolutely. Ugh. It was one of the most ridiculous things they could have chosen to do, especially after the extravagant way in which they shut down Dean's choice to say Yes. What, a better option is for someone "they need to let grow up" (of all things) give the Devil his one true vessel? Oh, please. That was all such sloppy writing, I can't even stomach watching most of that arc, to be honest.
To see Sam say that all he did in season 4 was because Dean wasn't letting him grow up made me dislike Sam's characterization so much because season 4 hadn't felt like that at all.
I AM DOING JUMPING JACKS IN MY HEAD FOR HOW MUCH I AGREE WITH THIS COMMENT. Seriously. I remember absolutely loving S4 because it felt as if the show was letting the brothers actually grow up and have a more complex relationship as a natural progression from what they had been through before. Then S5 came along ("Fallen Idols," specifically), and it was like the show pulled the rug out from under the brothers' characterization. Ugh, ugh. I try to block that out of my memory, too.
It was like the writers couldn't write anything else but Sam being in need of saving and Dean having to figure out what was wrong with Sam and save him.
The show's great and obsessive love for this particular storyline is one of its great failures, in my opinion. It's a huge disservice to Sam (forever cornering him in as an object), and what it does (or, rather, doesn't do) for Dean is... so disappointing that I lack words for how much I loathe it.
The toy soldier is happily ignored. A potentially beautiful idea with a horrible, lazy execution.
(I have to run back to work, but I will respond to your next comment soon! <333)
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