I Have Seen the White City

[sakuratsukikage]

I know I've been saying I was going to make posts about sexism and feminism in media, and I am, in fact, intending to do so (as well as writing fics I need to write), but instead of that, today, I'm going to make a post about racism in The Lord of the Rings.

The Lord of the Rings is a major foundational work of the fantasy genre.  Now, I'd be the

Comments

[celen]

This is indeed a worthy issue to consider, and for the most part, I agree with you in that in Tolkien's works, there is definitely a tone of racism to be found.

Concerning the "split" between the peoples and what you said as some being better than others, I have to confess I've never seen it exactly in that light. I've always thought that for example Noldor was considered as, how to put it, royalty amongst the elven races: not better in quality or character, but simply considered equal to our ancient noble families (who, in turn, were considered better than the others, but if we look at Noldor in that light, it is the problem of the society, not the writer, I should say). The part about the spiritual superiority is right, but does it make them better than the Sindar or the woodland elves? I don't think that's ever stated, and the spiritual potency does make sense, in a way. I do see your point, and there is definitely truth in it, but I hesitate to agree completely. What you said about the Númenóreans, however, I have to admit to be

[celen]

The reason why I've never been much concerned with the racism in Tokien's writings is because I can reason with it, little as I like it. And, more to the point, the racism present in his fiction is much less than in some other works of the time, or even times after that. Tolkien's works are strictly part of the white, male canon - a fact that might annoy me to death, if it were not for some of the parts in his writings that make me overlook it in the favor of appreciating what is surely the greatest tale ever told. It should be read in the genre of epics and mythologies, and as one, it's one of the least sexist, least racist ones. As a book, however, both are to be found and there is no doubt that as a whole, the Lord of the Rings is indeed racist

[sakuratsukikage]

A LONG COMMENT YAY. Since I know you love Tolkien's work, too, I was hoping you'd come over here and say something (even if it disagreed with me).

The reason I made this post is that overall, I just want people to be more aware. I don't want people to start hating Tolkien's guts and calling him a racist--I definitely don't want that! As you say, he was a part of his culture and his time, and he was a lot better than pretty much everyone else at the time, and much better about it than most writers today, as a matter of fact. That's a pretty good record. But I want people to be able to look at something, even something they really love, and go "hmm, maybe that's kind of racist." If people could critique the media they consume, we'd be in a much better place in terms of what media we get to consume, in my opinion--if that makes any sense. So that was why I made this post

[sakuratsukikage]

And yes! Exactly that, on the orcs. You can take the orcs as being a thematic statement on the results of evil on the spirit--they are definitely not an "evil race," in any sense of the world, except that being evil makes you into them. And . . . as unpleasant as his statements about them being Mongoloid are, I do think he grew out of that kind of attitude. Which doesn't make the fact that he made those statements any better. But at least he didn't stick with them throughout his life.

I agree with his never intending the implication that the men of Harad and the East were totally evil, rather that they basically got massively screwed by Sauron relocating there and didn't have much of a chance to get away from him. But . . . yes. I think the portrayal of them as Asians and a variety of darker-skinned ethnicities is incredibly unfortunate. I also think it makes sense, what with the attitudes of the time that you mention, because I think that was a major factor. But it's also racist, and I agree with you that no one can ignore

[celen]

Yes, it is a comfort to know he never again alluded to that, nor mentioned it in any official writings. A slight comfort, for it is indeed not to be forgotten that he did make those statements, and that the idea is still there, but a comfort nonetheless, if only because it shows just what you said: he didn't stick with those statements.

they basically got massively screwed by Sauron relocating there and didn't have much of a chance to get away from himAgreed. That's something I like in Tolkien's writings: he usually gives a reason, even for the "bad" people, to act as they do, and often there is an acceptable reason behind it, like lies they have heard or as in this case, fell under the rule of Sauron as they had no other choice. But while their exotic portrayal makes sense, it does not follow that I would have to like it. Or accept it. And furthermore, it is as you said: the enemy dwells in the East, and with him the armies of exotic soldiers, riding mûmakils. Should we see this as a comment to the situation during the time when the

[sakuratsukikage]

I feel the same way about it. It is a slight comfort at best, but yes--exactly. It shows he didn't stick with them.

Oh, it's definitely the same for me--I generally really appreciate his take on morality, which strikes me as generally being very nuanced. However, exoticizing the enemy is a terrible thing to see him doing. I don't believe it's a coincidence, either. I think it has a lot to do with when the book was written, and the fear of the unknown, as you theorize.

And yes--I totally agree with you here on this one. As a student of Japan, I think I empathize with you on the WWII matter. Obviously I think Japan did terrible things during the war, and I still find the country fascinating. It's always important to have a nuanced view of things, I think.

It's the same with Tolkien's writings: to deny the racism in them would be denying part of what they are built upon, would confine them to something one-dimensional, not to be looked at except when it's placed on a pedestal, far from reach.I really agree with this, so much

[celen]

Haha, I thought that maybe you thought I would come over to babble, and I hope you didn't think I only disagreed with you. I think your overall point was very good, and indeed, it's a good thing to make people more aware, as these sort of things are too easily overlooked. And that Tolkien's works are widely revered is most definitely not an excuse to overlook racism or favoritism in his works. I mean, I love his works, all of them, and still I can easily say what is wrong with them. So yes, criticism of everything popular is never a bad thing, and is something I'd like to see done more often

[sakuratsukikage]

Oh, I don't think you only disagreed with me, at all. I'm just saying that I'm always open to discussion, even if someone does disagree! And thank you, seriously. I totally agree. I always seem to criticize things I like the most, in fact, because I spend the most time on them, so I see what's wrong with them most clearly.

The last time I read the Silmarillion was about two years ago, but yeah, I see exactly what you mean. I think it's really something to do with the Noldor's bloodline, or maybe their charisma? But yeah, I agree that there's something off about that whole thing.

I watched the Return of the King quite recently myself, and yes, stuff like that line, exactly. It's . . . quite troubling. (Sam is my favorite and has been ever since I first read the books, but oh, man, Faramir. ♥ I love him so much.)

And it's true; we can't really know exactly what he meant (unless he wrote it down for posterity, but yes). But . . . yes. Exactly that.

[celen]

This is like 103829328 years late, but I meant to ask this: you mentioned that people have been getting on Tolkien's case on the issue of orcs. Where have you heard/read people say that? Have you read any books/essays/something that would deal with this issue? If you have, I'd be grateful if you could tell me, as I'm interested in reading those. :>

[sakuratsukikage]

Oh, man, now I've got to remember. The chief place I've seen this argument has been on the academic front, rather than online, though I've seen people argue it a few places online, too. I'll look around and see if I can find anything. I'm sorry; I just don't have the energy right now, but I'll hook you up whenever I can.

[celen]

Oh, it's okay, just do it when you have time and energy for it, no need to hurry or anything. :) And I don't mind if you can just give me a name of an academic text or something like that, I can look it up on my own.