There is no question, that some of the Palestinians are innocent. However by and large, even the children are taught to hate.
The Israelis have build bomb shelters because they had to... nonetheless, the rocket attacks do regularly kill Israeli civilians- however the press only shows the photos of the Palestinians deaths, not those of the Israelis.
The Palestinians had the option to accept the UN Partition plan in 1948. They refused.
They've had other opportunities since then and if the Palestinian authorities would actually honor their agreements for peace, then the Israelis would leave well enough alone. Unfortunately, the Palestinians went and voted in Hamas, a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION as their Government.
I don't believe in killing them all. I stated that they should all be thrown out into the Sinai desert. Specifically, I want them settled out of rocket range of Israel. The Sinai, unlike the Sahara, is not all that different from our own western deserts. With a reasonable amount of support, they are eminently habitable. In fact before the Israelis returned the Sinai to Egypt in 1977, they had several thriving settlements in the Sinai desert.
Finally there has NEVER been a time that no Jews have lived in Israel. The Palestinians have *absolutely not* been there longer than the Jews. The term "Palestine" came from the British themselves. There was no "Palestinian Nationality" until the state of Israel was created, and the PLF and later PLO were formed with the instigation of the surrounding Arab states to "throw the Israelis Back into the Sea"
Yes and no. Israeli children are taught to hate as well. Givat Havivah exists because of this. If you don't think that the settlers hate the Arabs I'd be suprised.
There have been fewer than 100 Israeli civilians killed by motar or rocket fire in the last 8 years. There are have been thousands of Palestinians killed.
The Partition plan was not then and isn't now fair. The international community doesn't have a great track record of partition - look at India.
yes - they need to honor it, but yes, the Israelis should stop with the settlements and stop withthe locking down Gaza and the West bank. People can't work, can't get food and die becuase of the lockdowns. Also - Gaza has Hamas The WB has Fatah - and things aren't that much better there.
Why settle them in Egypt? Why not resettle all the Israelis, it would be equally as fair and in fact the Zionist movement split on this point though not intending to put Israel in the Middle East.
I would argue that at least they have been there as long, I mean if you want to treat the Bible as historical - the Jews kicked out the Arabs. There were in fact Palestinians prior - it was part of the issue is that none of the Arab world besides Jordan would take them and in fact they did better in Israel most of the time. Regardless - it was their home and they were forced out. That tends to be a problem.
Where the hell are you getting your numbers? Between the various Suicide Bombings and Rocket Mortar Attacks, there have been a great many more civilian casualties than just 100. The fact that rocket attacks are perhaps less effective than some of their other methods doesn't make it excusable.
The majority of Israelis who I know personally do not actively teach their children to hate. (And I know a hell of a lot of Israelis)
Every Palestinian I met when I was in Israel expressed hatred or contempt for me and my fellow Jews.
Most of the Israeli Arabs I met were trying to figure out why the Palestinian Arabs hated us so much.
The Palestinians have never done anything to earn the trust of the people around them.
Israel is MY homeland. That was given by Hashem to MY forefathers. That is an article of faith for me and any other Jew who genuinely believes.
There is ONE Jewish State. Every other state in the region is Arab. If the Arabs took care of their own internationally the way Jews do, maybe the Palestinians wouldn't have as many problems, however the entire rest of the Arab world wants nothing to do with them, and prefers instead to used them as a knife in Israel's belly. I feel sorry for them on that level, but not as sorry as I feel for my own people.
The Israelis have been patient. The Israelis regularly agree to cease-fires. Hamas ceases fire long enough to rebuild their ammunition supply and then breaks the cease fire again. Enough is enough.
Finally, what it comes down to for me is this: Hamas killed my best friend. The one person I knew who believed in peace more than anyone else I had ever met.
The Palestinians elected Hamas as their government.
They chose evil, now they suffer the consequences.
Rafe - I am going to choose to believe that you did not just call my Judiasm into question. I will happily have a conversation with you about this - but not if it turns into personal attacks.
of course... it doesn't let me edit comments, only the original post...
That line should have read... "Israel is MY homeland. That was given by Hashem to MY forefathers. That is an article of faith for me and the majority of other Jews who genuinely believe.
I hit the *post* button instead of the "preview" button where I would have caught the editing failure.
K - I was in fact about it be royally irritated. In point of fact I am a Zionist - but I'm also aware that the early Zionists did seriously think about settling a Jewish homeland outside of the Middle East.
Not *every* Palestinian hates Jews... though I'll admit that the couple who I know don't weren't living in that area at the time (people I met in college... and I'm assuming they still hold that view, as they were people who didn't believe in hating people in groups - though individuals, that might be another story). I know a number of Jews who may not come out and *say* they hate Arabs/Palestinians, but in word and action... it's a case of hate of the whole, but maybe having a few exceptions to that rule.
Both sides have a legitimate grudge against the other. Neither side has done a *whole* lot to mitigate the hate coming from the other side.
And you *can't* hold what a child believes based on what they have been told by their parents/adults against them - many may well change their minds eventually, no matter what that belief is (thank goodness... or I'd *still* have things thrown at me regularly, just because of what I look like). Heck, you don't have to go further than either of the last two presidential elections to see proof of that one - What I've heard echoed in schools (believe it or not, I heard more kids violently for/against one candidate over another not in the past election, but in Bush's last election) is not necessarily what I'd hear from those same kids even a few years later.
Yes, brain washing works... but so do seeds of doubt. Not enough ever seem to be sown on either side... heck, I have a strong recollection of DH commenting on the fact that Israel had voted a war eagle-type to lead the country at one point (no, I don't remember how long ago, but he does remember who it was, and does point out that they've gone back to mostly electing less-hot-heads since then).
The cease-fires? Honestly, if you think about them, most of them are a joke - both sides *know* that when one side or the other is ready after the time runs out, it's going to break out again... and in any case, there are almost always a few not with the government who will stir up trouble from time to time. Unless they learn to work with each other, even if it's one small group at a time, it's just not going to happen - either side. If either thought they could win over completely and not have the whole world turn on them, they would go for it... period (and that whole world thing might just be optional).
I did have hope when Arafat was around, and Jordan and Israel were also showing signs of truly wanting to have peace, even if it meant compromise that none were happy with (hey, it's the definition of the word quite often, anyway). Less and less hope of the necessary understanding that people *can* get along even with different beliefs, and of acknowledging that the last 50 years of re-settling on both sides' parts is there to stay, and that it's better to live with it than argue it further.
(continued.. because I can't figure out how to edit this and still attempt to make sense)
At one point in time I know I heard a fair amount about camps (summer/break-type camps) that were set up with children from both sides/POV - created with the goal of increasing understanding, and recognition that just because an individual belongs to a group, that doesn't make them bad... and then based on that fact, that maybe most of the people in that group aren't necessarily bad (and even maybe that everyone in their own group isn't perfect as well). Haven't heard of that project being active in decades, though... it's a shame... because I quite honestly can't imagine peace in that area ever becoming a "true" peace until that understanding happens.
BTW, as far as that "wipe them out" thing goes? Just remember... if they *did* go all out and do so... chances are pretty good that all the rest of the countries who look on Palestine rather more favorably than Israel in that area would turn around and jointly flatten Israel. And of course, that would mean that other allies would be called in to help Israel.... etc., etc.,... And, honestly, that's even scarier a thought.
(btw, even those countries who might not look on Palestine as a "knife" would definitely look on them as a buffer... and as the rest of the arab world doesn't really want to get involved in an all out war if they can have the alternative relative peace (much easier on all who live there), that leaves Palestine both on it's own, and with an even bigger wound to lick (and yes, just like a real wound being liked.. the hate/fear/desire for revenge and what they see as "justice" just festers and gets larger).
Neither side is completely in the right... and likewise neither is completely in the wrong. From time to time one leans further one direction or the other... likewise the other side... and both sometimes change that that direction... when we're lucky, they both lean towards understanding at the same time... unfortunately, we're now entering the third generation of adults dealing with the post WWII relocation stress that was put on the area artificially, and with each generation having more negative feelings about the other side, even without the older historical background, that's a problem I don't see an end to any time in the near future.
(oddly enough, the Israel/Palestine conflict came up twice in conversation in my house in the last week (might have been more). the last time in comparison to the problems of Northern Ireland... no, not the same by a long shot, but both "the boy" and I came up with several similarities as he was researching the problems in Ireland, especially up through 15-20 years ago or so)
Oh, and while I understand that last bit emotionally... logically, by that same reasoning, the US government killed some of my ancestors (and likely contributed to the perpetual ill health of one of the best teachers I ever had... despite the fact that he was in the US army, not by choice, at the time... as well as contributing to the heart issues my grandfather had most of his life, through his being called up into the Navy).... so does that mean that the US is evil, and I should hate them forever, wishing evil and death back? (heck, a *lot* of people who can trace their ancestory back to the Civil War alone can make that claim).
(and while yes, I admit to playing devil's advocate at times, when I do so it's because I truly believe that there are rarely truly only two sides to any argument... and I don't believe than any cause is best furthered by viewing thing in purely black and white... and in this case I've had enough history of the area (a fluke - the only 20th century history I actually had in a *class*) to be absolutely certain that both sides are absolutely right in their feelings of being wronged... but I'm equally certain that both sides are absolutely wrong in how they have been dealing with those beliefs, though I give both credit for trying from time to time... just wish those attempts had more staying power)
Oh... and the only reason I felt compelled to respond in the first place is that it honestly pains me to see *anyone* **hate** a people in general.
1) I don't know about nobody left there desiring peace, but I'll agree with you that there are probably few. However, there were quite a few Jews who very vocally did not want to leave Gaza and/or WB a few years ago, when it was handed over. If *they* wanted so much to stay, who's to say that there aren't Palestinians who had the same view - didn't want to fight, but it was where they'd lived so long they didn't want to move (and because of the handover, they weren't required to). Again, much of that hate is more taught/learned than direct.. why I wish that more of the interfaith camp-type programs had continued.
2) All depends on who's backing who in such a fight. Israel didn't do it alone nor did *all* of the Arab world *actively* gang up on them. History may repeat, but it doesn't always follow the exact same path.
3) The comments about hate of a people in general came up as happening on both sides above - not *everyone* on either side, but it was mentioned. Likewise, you can find people who will claim to be distanced who have very strong feelings one way or the other that come out in action and word (in any "strongly conflicting" group.. even if you look at some of the "redneck interviews" and the "Obama mama interviews" from this past elections.. one thing said when confronted, another said/done when not directly focused on the issue at hand). sagemcargh and museclio both brought up one side or the other being taught to hate.
4)Israel wasn't completely innocent when it comes to observing this last cease fire - they went in and raided an area in the Gaza Strip, killing several gunmen, during the cease fire. Yes, one side or the other or both could have done something along the same lines earlier in the cease fire, but that's the first group-specific incident that hit the news.
And both sides have been known to do similar "small operations" during cease fires in the past - even during the longest one. Some from both sides hit the news... many probably do not... especially those involving single or paired combatants not acknowledged by one group or the other.
And the recent news is *not* all anti-Israel (other than the incendiary devices burning non-Hamas civilians). There is quite a lot of negative about the bombing that Hamas started, and continues.
5) Ah.. part of the struggle around Israel is also based on land.. the religious aspect of the fight in the Middle East is stronger than the land aspect *at this point in time* (it hasn't always been so). In Northern Ireland, there is *definitely* still a religious aspect to the fighting, though it is less against the other as a religion and more for your own side, feeling oppressed. (which, has *got* to be part of how the Palestinians are feeling at this point.. seriously, being the "underdog" for the last 50 years or so *must* contribute to how they feel towards others).
I've never seen anyone attribute that statement to Arafat.. though admittedly he rejected the offered deal and did not offer a "better" one, to narrow the disagreement. My understanding has always been (from reports on the Camp David talks I *think* you're referring to) that the bigger sticking point was permitting resettlement on both sides for those who wanted to return. Arafat may have supported some of the more militant groups quietly, but he openly worked towards the goals of the least aggressive of the political groups - which is no longer in power (and as he died at least 3-4 years ago, he is not a current antagonist).
.. oh.. and a stray thought came to me last night with another comparison. This time not so much a war for property, but.. There are a lot of ways Hamas resembles the Chicago Mob of yesteryear. They gain a *lot* of support from the "common people" by providing assistance to them in the form of education, health care, etc. That doesn't make them good, but it does make them look like the lesser of two evils by a fair amount, and gains them support. And yes, I've heard stories of Hamas (and one of the other extremist groups there) actively discouraging people from not supporting them (again, sounds familiar).
Here's hoping that Hamas has to go the way of that mob.. and that Israel can straighten up as well.. because both sides have a lot of room for improvement still (admittedly, I think Palestine has further to go, but both sides create problems).
BTW... (promise, last thing)... it means much less when the stronger side keeps a cease fire than when the weaker side does. The stronger side has much less to gain by breaking it (and more in terms of outsider sympathy) than by keeping it.... while the weaker side is more strongly tempted to take advantage of the possibility that the stronger side has let its defenses down. Still not saying that breaking any agreement is good/right... but there *is* a distinctive bit of reasoning behind how two sides would view that particular type of agreement.
The Israelis have build bomb shelters because they had to... nonetheless, the rocket attacks do regularly kill Israeli civilians- however the press only shows the photos of the Palestinians deaths, not those of the Israelis.
The Palestinians had the option to accept the UN Partition plan in 1948. They refused.
They've had other opportunities since then and if the Palestinian authorities would actually honor their agreements for peace, then the Israelis would leave well enough alone. Unfortunately, the Palestinians went and voted in Hamas, a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION as their Government.
I don't believe in killing them all. I stated that they should all be thrown out into the Sinai desert. Specifically, I want them settled out of rocket range of Israel. The Sinai, unlike the Sahara, is not all that different from our own western deserts. With a reasonable amount of support, they are eminently habitable. In fact before the Israelis returned the Sinai to Egypt in 1977, they had several thriving settlements in the Sinai desert.
Finally there has NEVER been a time that no Jews have lived in Israel. The Palestinians have *absolutely not* been there longer than the Jews. The term "Palestine" came from the British themselves. There was no "Palestinian Nationality" until the state of Israel was created, and the PLF and later PLO were formed with the instigation of the surrounding Arab states to "throw the Israelis Back into the Sea"
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There have been fewer than 100 Israeli civilians killed by motar or rocket fire in the last 8 years. There are have been thousands of Palestinians killed.
The Partition plan was not then and isn't now fair. The international community doesn't have a great track record of partition - look at India.
yes - they need to honor it, but yes, the Israelis should stop with the settlements and stop withthe locking down Gaza and the West bank. People can't work, can't get food and die becuase of the lockdowns. Also - Gaza has Hamas The WB has Fatah - and things aren't that much better there.
Why settle them in Egypt? Why not resettle all the Israelis, it would be equally as fair and in fact the Zionist movement split on this point though not intending to put Israel in the Middle East.
I would argue that at least they have been there as long, I mean if you want to treat the Bible as historical - the Jews kicked out the Arabs. There were in fact Palestinians prior - it was part of the issue is that none of the Arab world besides Jordan would take them and in fact they did better in Israel most of the time. Regardless - it was their home and they were forced out. That tends to be a problem.
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The majority of Israelis who I know personally do not actively teach their children to hate. (And I know a hell of a lot of Israelis)
Every Palestinian I met when I was in Israel expressed hatred or contempt for me and my fellow Jews.
Most of the Israeli Arabs I met were trying to figure out why the Palestinian Arabs hated us so much.
The Palestinians have never done anything to earn the trust of the people around them.
Israel is MY homeland. That was given by Hashem to MY forefathers. That is an article of faith for me and any other Jew who genuinely believes.
There is ONE Jewish State. Every other state in the region is Arab. If the Arabs took care of their own internationally the way Jews do, maybe the Palestinians wouldn't have as many problems, however the entire rest of the Arab world wants nothing to do with them, and prefers instead to used them as a knife in Israel's belly. I feel sorry for them on that level, but not as sorry as I feel for my own people.
The Israelis have been patient. The Israelis regularly agree to cease-fires. Hamas ceases fire long enough to rebuild their ammunition supply and then breaks the cease fire again. Enough is enough.
Finally, what it comes down to for me is this:
Hamas killed my best friend. The one person I knew who believed in peace more than anyone else I had ever met.
The Palestinians elected Hamas as their government.
They chose evil, now they suffer the consequences.
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That line should have read... "Israel is MY homeland. That was given by Hashem to MY forefathers. That is an article of faith for me and the majority of other Jews who genuinely believe.
I hit the *post* button instead of the "preview" button where I would have caught the editing failure.
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Both sides have a legitimate grudge against the other. Neither side has done a *whole* lot to mitigate the hate coming from the other side.
And you *can't* hold what a child believes based on what they have been told by their parents/adults against them - many may well change their minds eventually, no matter what that belief is (thank goodness... or I'd *still* have things thrown at me regularly, just because of what I look like). Heck, you don't have to go further than either of the last two presidential elections to see proof of that one - What I've heard echoed in schools (believe it or not, I heard more kids violently for/against one candidate over another not in the past election, but in Bush's last election) is not necessarily what I'd hear from those same kids even a few years later.
Yes, brain washing works... but so do seeds of doubt. Not enough ever seem to be sown on either side... heck, I have a strong recollection of DH commenting on the fact that Israel had voted a war eagle-type to lead the country at one point (no, I don't remember how long ago, but he does remember who it was, and does point out that they've gone back to mostly electing less-hot-heads since then).
The cease-fires? Honestly, if you think about them, most of them are a joke - both sides *know* that when one side or the other is ready after the time runs out, it's going to break out again... and in any case, there are almost always a few not with the government who will stir up trouble from time to time. Unless they learn to work with each other, even if it's one small group at a time, it's just not going to happen - either side. If either thought they could win over completely and not have the whole world turn on them, they would go for it... period (and that whole world thing might just be optional).
I did have hope when Arafat was around, and Jordan and Israel were also showing signs of truly wanting to have peace, even if it meant compromise that none were happy with (hey, it's the definition of the word quite often, anyway). Less and less hope of the necessary understanding that people *can* get along even with different beliefs, and of acknowledging that the last 50 years of re-settling on both sides' parts is there to stay, and that it's better to live with it than argue it further.
(continued.. because I can't figure out how to edit this and still attempt to make sense)
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At one point in time I know I heard a fair amount about camps (summer/break-type camps) that were set up with children from both sides/POV - created with the goal of increasing understanding, and recognition that just because an individual belongs to a group, that doesn't make them bad... and then based on that fact, that maybe most of the people in that group aren't necessarily bad (and even maybe that everyone in their own group isn't perfect as well). Haven't heard of that project being active in decades, though... it's a shame... because I quite honestly can't imagine peace in that area ever becoming a "true" peace until that understanding happens.
BTW, as far as that "wipe them out" thing goes? Just remember... if they *did* go all out and do so... chances are pretty good that all the rest of the countries who look on Palestine rather more favorably than Israel in that area would turn around and jointly flatten Israel. And of course, that would mean that other allies would be called in to help Israel.... etc., etc.,... And, honestly, that's even scarier a thought.
(btw, even those countries who might not look on Palestine as a "knife" would definitely look on them as a buffer... and as the rest of the arab world doesn't really want to get involved in an all out war if they can have the alternative relative peace (much easier on all who live there), that leaves Palestine both on it's own, and with an even bigger wound to lick (and yes, just like a real wound being liked.. the hate/fear/desire for revenge and what they see as "justice" just festers and gets larger).
Neither side is completely in the right... and likewise neither is completely in the wrong. From time to time one leans further one direction or the other... likewise the other side... and both sometimes change that that direction... when we're lucky, they both lean towards understanding at the same time... unfortunately, we're now entering the third generation of adults dealing with the post WWII relocation stress that was put on the area artificially, and with each generation having more negative feelings about the other side, even without the older historical background, that's a problem I don't see an end to any time in the near future.
(oddly enough, the Israel/Palestine conflict came up twice in conversation in my house in the last week (might have been more). the last time in comparison to the problems of Northern Ireland... no, not the same by a long shot, but both "the boy" and I came up with several similarities as he was researching the problems in Ireland, especially up through 15-20 years ago or so)
Oh, and while I understand that last bit emotionally... logically, by that same reasoning, the US government killed some of my ancestors (and likely contributed to the perpetual ill health of one of the best teachers I ever had... despite the fact that he was in the US army, not by choice, at the time... as well as contributing to the heart issues my grandfather had most of his life, through his being called up into the Navy).... so does that mean that the US is evil, and I should hate them forever, wishing evil and death back? (heck, a *lot* of people who can trace their ancestory back to the Civil War alone can make that claim).
(and while yes, I admit to playing devil's advocate at times, when I do so it's because I truly believe that there are rarely truly only two sides to any argument... and I don't believe than any cause is best furthered by viewing thing in purely black and white... and in this case I've had enough history of the area (a fluke - the only 20th century history I actually had in a *class*) to be absolutely certain that both sides are absolutely right in their feelings of being wronged... but I'm equally certain that both sides are absolutely wrong in how they have been dealing with those beliefs, though I give both credit for trying from time to time... just wish those attempts had more staying power)
Oh... and the only reason I felt compelled to respond in the first place is that it honestly pains me to see *anyone* **hate** a people in general.
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2) All depends on who's backing who in such a fight. Israel didn't do it alone nor did *all* of the Arab world *actively* gang up on them. History may repeat, but it doesn't always follow the exact same path.
3) The comments about hate of a people in general came up as happening on both sides above - not *everyone* on either side, but it was mentioned. Likewise, you can find people who will claim to be distanced who have very strong feelings one way or the other that come out in action and word (in any "strongly conflicting" group.. even if you look at some of the "redneck interviews" and the "Obama mama interviews" from this past elections.. one thing said when confronted, another said/done when not directly focused on the issue at hand). sagemcargh and museclio both brought up one side or the other being taught to hate.
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4)Israel wasn't completely innocent when it comes to observing this last cease fire - they went in and raided an area in the Gaza Strip, killing several gunmen, during the cease fire. Yes, one side or the other or both could have done something along the same lines earlier in the cease fire, but that's the first group-specific incident that hit the news.
And both sides have been known to do similar "small operations" during cease fires in the past - even during the longest one. Some from both sides hit the news... many probably do not... especially those involving single or paired combatants not acknowledged by one group or the other.
And the recent news is *not* all anti-Israel (other than the incendiary devices burning non-Hamas civilians). There is quite a lot of negative about the bombing that Hamas started, and continues.
5) Ah.. part of the struggle around Israel is also based on land.. the religious aspect of the fight in the Middle East is stronger than the land aspect *at this point in time* (it hasn't always been so). In Northern Ireland, there is *definitely* still a religious aspect to the fighting, though it is less against the other as a religion and more for your own side, feeling oppressed. (which, has *got* to be part of how the Palestinians are feeling at this point.. seriously, being the "underdog" for the last 50 years or so *must* contribute to how they feel towards others).
I've never seen anyone attribute that statement to Arafat.. though admittedly he rejected the offered deal and did not offer a "better" one, to narrow the disagreement. My understanding has always been (from reports on the Camp David talks I *think* you're referring to) that the bigger sticking point was permitting resettlement on both sides for those who wanted to return. Arafat may have supported some of the more militant groups quietly, but he openly worked towards the goals of the least aggressive of the political groups - which is no longer in power (and as he died at least 3-4 years ago, he is not a current antagonist).
.. oh.. and a stray thought came to me last night with another comparison. This time not so much a war for property, but.. There are a lot of ways Hamas resembles the Chicago Mob of yesteryear. They gain a *lot* of support from the "common people" by providing assistance to them in the form of education, health care, etc. That doesn't make them good, but it does make them look like the lesser of two evils by a fair amount, and gains them support. And yes, I've heard stories of Hamas (and one of the other extremist groups there) actively discouraging people from not supporting them (again, sounds familiar).
Here's hoping that Hamas has to go the way of that mob.. and that Israel can straighten up as well.. because both sides have a lot of room for improvement still (admittedly, I think Palestine has further to go, but both sides create problems).
BTW... (promise, last thing)... it means much less when the stronger side keeps a cease fire than when the weaker side does. The stronger side has much less to gain by breaking it (and more in terms of outsider sympathy) than by keeping it.... while the weaker side is more strongly tempted to take advantage of the possibility that the stronger side has let its defenses down. Still not saying that breaking any agreement is good/right... but there *is* a distinctive bit of reasoning behind how two sides would view that particular type of agreement.
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