I guess I just don't have the life experience to grasp that simply from watching the show and not thinking about the meta behind it as we are now. My father was never like that. I can't say I felt fear of my dad growing up. Not that he's perfect by any means but I just don't have that common thread to share with the characters in order to understand that POV.
I also think that my confusion lies in the fact that the writing has never shown this growth of the bros opinion of JW, you know? One minute Sam hates John then tries to do right after he dies. One minute Dean is John's soldier then he's calling him an "obsessed bastard" and w/e else he said to dream demon Dean. Then Sam tells young John he understands his father and Dean backs John up to Henry. But there's not examination of those feelings in between. Does that make any sense? I guess that's hard to do when the guy isn't around anymore and we don't exactly get these nice bonding moments on the show like we do in fic. So when these scenes do come up on the show, the boys' response was almost strange to me. I've seen other reviews on here talking about how they weren't sure if Dean was serious about his story or if he was just feeding Cas a line. I didn't think of it that far, but I can see where the uncertainty is coming from. I think it's the same reason JDM has mentioned a time or two in interviews that he wishes he could come back and fix the negative view on John the show has taken sometimes. It kinda makes me sad since this is all about family like you said. Hopefully we'll get more of those moments in the future.
Well, as a woman and a mother and a person with TONS of life experience, I can say that I see it time and time again. Not all sons, and certainly not all children, have that kind of relationship with their fathers. Some dads are dead-beats, some are abusers, some love unconditionally, some are just as touchy/feely as women, some never have that "beat down" that I have seen between fathers and sons. It's control and obedience and disobedience and pushing limits and testosterone. There are pissing contests and challenges and mistakes. A lot of times, it's just a male thing. The young colt challenges the stallion, the adolescent male being "kicked" out of the pride by the adult male lion. The Alpha wolf that asserts his dominance over a younger wolf. I wouldn't be surprised if we see JDM at some point in the future. For the first time in 10 years,he is coming to a convention in Las Vegas this spring. I think we may be in for a resolution of a sort sometime down the line between John and the boys.
Yea all dads are very different. I know my dad didn't have the nicest father growing up. So maybe it's a "don't want to do what he did to me" kind of thing. I wonder if Dean feels that way about how he went in helping to raise Sam. Damn would that make a good fic prompt or what? Wish I was good at writing those things.
I saw the Js announce JDM too. Definitely didn't see that coming. I was thinking it was either an early s11 pickup or someone was having another baby LOL! I wonder if JDM attending a con means he's going to pop up on the show again or something. Maybe this little scene in 10.09 is foreshadowing? Would be interesting. I'd even take just a flashback! I could have sworn someone tweeted a cap from the Jan promo that showed the actor who played young Dean in Bad Boys. Idk if it's just a recycled clip from that epi but it would be cool to have more flashbacks. I love pre-series stories. Wish they did that for the spinoff!
Well, when Dean was helping to raise Ben, Ben would never be a hunter and then did that all "min-erase" thing which I think was stupid. I think he might do some things differently NOW. Like the mind erase thing. Dumb from my POV. Erasing Ben's memories did nothing to erase the demons who knew what he was doing I'm sure. So as far as I am concerned, he put Ben in more danger. But that is beating a dead horse. I'm sure some of the things he would change and change for the better as a dad. No doubt on that. But I think he would also re-think some of the things his dad did and incorporate them into his own parenting style. And since I don't believe (in my own head) that any kid of Dean's wouldn't be hunting - that changes everything on how Dean would raise a kid. As long as there are monsters out there, his family would be at risk ALWAYS so teaching them to hunt would just be protecting them in the way that John protected them. The only way John could "protect" his boys was to put them in the line of fire and give them the skills to protect THEMSELVES. There is no other way to do it. You can't "unknow" what is out there, he could never pretend it wasn't there. Neither can Dean as much as he would like to keep it away from his kids.
Oh yea I totally agree. The mind erase thing was lame. I mean, what happened to "Of course you should be afraid of the dark. You know what's out there!"? Personally I think Ben and Lisa were connected enough to the Winchesters way back with the changelings episode. From that time on, any demon or w/e would see that Dean cared for them even before the time he lived with them. Why else would he repeatedly visit Lisa and even warn her before the apocalypse went down? So them suddenly not knowing about what's out there is more a danger than a help. I also wondered if Cas erased the whole neighborhood's knowledge of Dean. And what happened to all Dean's belongings at her house? Wouldn't something give him away?
Dean would teach his kids to hunt, definitely. I just think he'd try to go about it in a different way that John had, at least with some things. Clearly he did with Sam. (I've always had the idea that 4yr old Dean would try to take care of Sam in the way he saw Mary do it and it just kept going over the yrs) If John was gone all the time, who was training Sam as a kid? Who was sparring with him? It wasn't John a lot of the time if he was on a job. And I can only hope that John wouldn't make wee!Sam spar against him considering the huge size difference. It would make more sense for Dean to fight against him. I happen to think that's why they were so evenly matched in the fight in the Pilot, how they knew each other's every move and why Dean jokingly told him he was losing his touch (bc Dean would be the best judge of Sam's skills).
So, if Dean - by his own admission - was the one who was always there for Sam, taking care of him, etc, then I believe he'd raise his own kids in the same way. I just can't see him being the type to leave a ten year old in charge of a 5 year old for days on end and stuff like that. I also feel like he would abandon his own crusade in a heartbeat if he son called him saying his other son was dying in a matter of weeks. It's those kinds of stories we've seen/heard of John that I think are the moments the boys would feel that they wouldn't want to handle them as their father did while in the same token follow John's lead in the good memories (i.e. saving your underage son from a NYC club).
Was John bad all the time? No. Clearly, as per Dean's story, there were moments when he pulled through. But as the sole source of guidance and mentorship in the brothers' lives, he plays a rather heavy part in many of the psychological/emotional issues, personality traits, and relationship woes (as in the boys current struggle to be equals, and Dean's personal struggle between acting like a brother and a father to Sam). I swear these two could keep a therapist busy for multiple lifetimes LOL! And wouldn't THAT make quiet the episode?!
I'm just skimming, so if my reply to your post doesn't make total sense, or I'm completely addressing/ignoring the wrong issue, or repeating what someone else said, I apologize.
Re: Dean's thoughts on John . . . I totally see growth in Dean. He started out hero-worshiping John, then phased into resenting him for dumping everything he did on Dean, for being absentee, whatever. Then in S6, the one with Samuel, Dean tells Sam to remember what John taught them about family, and he lands into Samuel about how Samuel claims everything is about family, but that's where he and John differed, because for John, it actually was. I see Dean as having come full circle, to a point where he doesn't hero-worship John, but he remembers the good stuff, too, not just the bad. Where he isn't resentful, he accepts his dad as flawed by trying.
It's been a while since I've composed these thoughts as I've done in the past, so I hope that makes sense.
I also think that my confusion lies in the fact that the writing has never shown this growth of the bros opinion of JW, you know? One minute Sam hates John then tries to do right after he dies. One minute Dean is John's soldier then he's calling him an "obsessed bastard" and w/e else he said to dream demon Dean. Then Sam tells young John he understands his father and Dean backs John up to Henry. But there's not examination of those feelings in between. Does that make any sense? I guess that's hard to do when the guy isn't around anymore and we don't exactly get these nice bonding moments on the show like we do in fic. So when these scenes do come up on the show, the boys' response was almost strange to me. I've seen other reviews on here talking about how they weren't sure if Dean was serious about his story or if he was just feeding Cas a line. I didn't think of it that far, but I can see where the uncertainty is coming from. I think it's the same reason JDM has mentioned a time or two in interviews that he wishes he could come back and fix the negative view on John the show has taken sometimes. It kinda makes me sad since this is all about family like you said. Hopefully we'll get more of those moments in the future.
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I saw the Js announce JDM too. Definitely didn't see that coming. I was thinking it was either an early s11 pickup or someone was having another baby LOL! I wonder if JDM attending a con means he's going to pop up on the show again or something. Maybe this little scene in 10.09 is foreshadowing? Would be interesting. I'd even take just a flashback! I could have sworn someone tweeted a cap from the Jan promo that showed the actor who played young Dean in Bad Boys. Idk if it's just a recycled clip from that epi but it would be cool to have more flashbacks. I love pre-series stories. Wish they did that for the spinoff!
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Dean would teach his kids to hunt, definitely. I just think he'd try to go about it in a different way that John had, at least with some things. Clearly he did with Sam. (I've always had the idea that 4yr old Dean would try to take care of Sam in the way he saw Mary do it and it just kept going over the yrs) If John was gone all the time, who was training Sam as a kid? Who was sparring with him? It wasn't John a lot of the time if he was on a job. And I can only hope that John wouldn't make wee!Sam spar against him considering the huge size difference. It would make more sense for Dean to fight against him. I happen to think that's why they were so evenly matched in the fight in the Pilot, how they knew each other's every move and why Dean jokingly told him he was losing his touch (bc Dean would be the best judge of Sam's skills).
So, if Dean - by his own admission - was the one who was always there for Sam, taking care of him, etc, then I believe he'd raise his own kids in the same way. I just can't see him being the type to leave a ten year old in charge of a 5 year old for days on end and stuff like that. I also feel like he would abandon his own crusade in a heartbeat if he son called him saying his other son was dying in a matter of weeks. It's those kinds of stories we've seen/heard of John that I think are the moments the boys would feel that they wouldn't want to handle them as their father did while in the same token follow John's lead in the good memories (i.e. saving your underage son from a NYC club).
Was John bad all the time? No. Clearly, as per Dean's story, there were moments when he pulled through. But as the sole source of guidance and mentorship in the brothers' lives, he plays a rather heavy part in many of the psychological/emotional issues, personality traits, and relationship woes (as in the boys current struggle to be equals, and Dean's personal struggle between acting like a brother and a father to Sam). I swear these two could keep a therapist busy for multiple lifetimes LOL! And wouldn't THAT make quiet the episode?!
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Re: Dean's thoughts on John . . . I totally see growth in Dean. He started out hero-worshiping John, then phased into resenting him for dumping everything he did on Dean, for being absentee, whatever. Then in S6, the one with Samuel, Dean tells Sam to remember what John taught them about family, and he lands into Samuel about how Samuel claims everything is about family, but that's where he and John differed, because for John, it actually was. I see Dean as having come full circle, to a point where he doesn't hero-worship John, but he remembers the good stuff, too, not just the bad. Where he isn't resentful, he accepts his dad as flawed by trying.
It's been a while since I've composed these thoughts as I've done in the past, so I hope that makes sense.
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