Re: But Kaliba already HAS terminators (being sent back?)roxybisquaintApril 8 2010, 18:54:40 UTC
This is a chess game.
Yes and no. We've got the game of Go in the mix too. The rules have changed to some extent.
Cameron is a high-value piece; an asset to John Connor, Sarah Connor, and, as it turns out, to John Henry.
So is the queen in chess, but the Japanese won their chess match against Andy's Turk by pulling a Byrne-Fischer and sacrificing it.
Kaliba apparently is an adversary to Weaver and John Henry.
Where are you getting that from? Kaliba was trying to destroy Weaver and John Henry, not to mention kill Savannah.
Since Kaliba is already sending infiltrators back, and needs a chip, the smuggling logistics are trivial.
True and Skynet could've just made a chip for that purpose that wouldn't self-destruct when it got exposed to air. So why the Kaliba AI would need/want Cameron's chip specifically is unknown. That's why I defaulted to Cameron's chip being special - the most powerful neural net processor on earth (according to present-day John, anyway and he really has no way of knowing that).
But we do know Cameron's chip looks very different than all the other chips we've seen. It would lead me to believe it really is much more advanced than the chips used by any of the T-888s running around. Why Skynet isn't making those same chips for all its bots is part of the mystery.
It's more important to deny Team Connor and the "third faction" access to Cameron's chip.
I actually think Kaliba has come about because of the johnless future (the future he jumped into in BTR). We don't know when that path began, but I'm starting to suspect it could go all the way back to John putting Cameron's chip back in in S&D - that that moment could have started the series of events that ultimately lead to John making that leap into the future (and removing himself as leader of the resistance).
Kaliba seemed to be after Sarah and John because of their warehouse getting blown up by Weaver (which they thought Sarah and her son were responsible for). So the attack on Sarah and John in Lighthouse wasn't the traditional KILL JOHN CONNOR thing, it was about killing a present-day enemy.
Re: But Kaliba already HAS terminators (being sent back?)bobmacpharsonApril 8 2010, 18:59:37 UTC
I don't think "most powerful computer on earth" meant anything other than it was exponentially more powerful than whatever firewall the traffic-light-program had.
I think there may be some "specialness" to Cameron but I don't think it's something known to the rest of Skynet. I think it's far more likely that she merely had information (either about the Connors in the present day or from the Future War) that was important.
Re: But Kaliba already HAS terminators (being sent back?)roxybisquaintApril 9 2010, 01:01:42 UTC
I don't think it's something known to the rest of Skynet
How could Skynet not know? It created her and her chip. Maybe it didn't know the extent of how well that type of chip would ultimately function, though. Is that what you meant?
Re: But Kaliba already HAS terminators (being sent back?)tackdriver56April 8 2010, 20:34:47 UTC
"We've got the game of Go in the mix too. The rules have changed to some extent." You’ve got me there. I can’t let go of the concept that the players have value beyond their position in the game-space.
"… the Japanese won their chess match against Andy's Turk by pulling a Byrne-Fischer and sacrificing (their queen)." OK, so John has relinquished control, and Cameron initiated self sacrifice, to give John an advantage? Possibly, but Cameron was targeted by Kaliba, rather than offering herself to them.
"Kaliba was trying to destroy Weaver and John Henry, not to mention kill Savannah." OK, definitely an adversary. I just have this nagging suspicion that the HK attack was pretty lame, and could have been a confidence ploy orchestrated by Weaver to entice John to follow Weaver/John Henry/Cameron’s Chip.
Since Kaliba is already sending infiltrators back, and needs a chip, the smuggling logistics are trivial.
"I defaulted to Cameron's chip being special - the most powerful neural net processor on earth." The inverse view of this was Cromartie’s assertion that Cameron’s chip is damaged, that she’s making mistakes because of the damage. Funny that it turns out to be John Henry’s life boat. I’m taking the position that it WAS damaged in the explosion, and the part of her uniqueness stems from the rerouting she did to patch around the damage, more so than some superiority of the initial design.
"we do know Cameron's chip looks very different than all the other chips we've seen…. Why Skynet isn't making those same chips for all its bots is part of the mystery." Was it different from Vic's chip? I don’t know, maybe she was a prototype, got captured, reprogrammed, and Sky Net said “Crap! Back to the drawing board…”.
“I actually think Kaliba has come about because of the john-less future” There were actually TWO John-less time segments, both involving Cameron, which brings me back around to an earlier view that: Protecting John is a Bad Thing. Leaders are tempered in the fires of adversity.
AI is one of those technologies which have reached critical mass. The building blocks are present in so many places, that the attainment of the technology, of an implementation, is inevitable. Kaliba’s AI may be the result of Danny Dyson’s stack of blocks. Kaliba’s instance of Sky Net may be the result of the elimination of its previously successful competition by Sarah, by Derek, by John and Cameron.
John needed to develop a closer relationship with the technology, to turn it to his advantage. He could not achieve this by burning Cameron.
snip “the attack on Sarah and John in Lighthouse wasn't the traditional KILL JOHN CONNOR thing, it was about killing a present-day enemy.” I’m confused by this. Sky Net has sent Grays back to mess with the timeline, but isn’t giving Kaliba useful targeting information. (Winston) put a tracking bug in Sarah’s breast, presumably to find and capture John, and water boy goes after the Weavers instead of the Connors. Perhaps you’re right: John is already irrelevant, and Derek was only killed because he was in the way.
Re: But Kaliba already HAS terminators (being sent back?)roxybisquaintApril 9 2010, 00:55:11 UTC
OK, so John has relinquished control, and Cameron initiated self sacrifice, to give John an advantage? Possibly, but Cameron was targeted by Kaliba, rather than offering herself to them.
No, but she presumably offered herself to John Henry. Until we know more about what was going on in the future at the point that Cameron came back, it's hard to come up with a solid theory on who sent her and what her full mission was or whether she sacrificed herself or was sacrificed by whoever sent her (which may or may not have been future!John).
I just have this nagging suspicion that the HK attack was pretty lame, and could have been a confidence ploy orchestrated by Weaver to entice John to follow Weaver/John Henry/Cameron’s Chip.
That's an angle I hadn't considered - that Weaver really was behind Kaliba and used it to create the illusion of a common enemy. I'm not inclined to not agree. Even though I see Weaver as ultimately being bad for mankind, I actually do believe her when she said she was building something to stop Skynet. Maybe she's got me duped :P
The inverse view of this was Cromartie’s assertion that Cameron’s chip is damaged, that she’s making mistakes because of the damage. Funny that it turns out to be John Henry’s life boat. I’m taking the position that it WAS damaged in the explosion, and the part of her uniqueness stems from the rerouting she did to patch around the damage, more so than some superiority of the initial design.
Cameron's chip was definitely damaged in the explosion. Her own systems check said that right afterwards (even showed the location of the damage on screen). I agree that the resulting glitchiness is part of what makes her unique now. It's made her unpredictable like a human (the ability to "cross against the light").
Was it different from Vic's chip? I don’t know, maybe she was a prototype, got captured, reprogrammed, and Sky Net said “Crap! Back to the drawing board…”.
Yes, very clearly different and all the chips we've seen appear to look like Vick's. I think Cameron being a prototype is a good probability. She was being sent as an infiltrator to John's camp to kill him so I guess Skynet wanted her to be better and smarter than the standard T-888.
There were actually TWO John-less time segments, both involving Cameron, which brings me back around to an earlier view that: Protecting John is a Bad Thing. Leaders are tempered in the fires of adversity.
Two? You think BTR was the second time he'd jumped forward and removed himself from the equation? When was the other? I think I'm going to need some details on that theory.
Re: But Kaliba already HAS terminators (being sent back?)tackdriver56April 9 2010, 12:04:03 UTC
Jumping down-time created a gap of 10? John-less years. This was time when he could have been keeping up with developments in technology, learning to reprogram the terminators, developing a social network to seed the resistance.
Referring back to T1, John never prevented Judgement Day: he revealed his skills and rose to lead the resistance while in Century Work Camp.
I would question whether he knows enough, post BTR, to BE THAT GUY, as a result of two terminators jumping him to "safety".
I'm rooting for his exposure to the reality of Judgement Day to stiffen his resolve, and to escape back to the past, to build the resistance.
Re: But Kaliba already HAS terminators (being sent back?)roxybisquaintApril 10 2010, 06:34:20 UTC
Eight Johnless years, but when I say "johnless future" I'm specifically referring to a post-apocalyptic future where John Connor wasn't there to form the resistance and no one knows who he is.
I would question whether he knows enough, post BTR, to BE THAT GUY
I don't think he's even close yet. He still has too many issues to deal with. I'm sure his time there will help him deal with them, though.
I'm rooting for his exposure to the reality of Judgement Day to stiffen his resolve, and to escape back to the past, to build the resistance.
I don't think it's his resolve that's in question, nor his abilities. I think John's biggest problem is he's running away from humanity. "Human beings can't be replaced." He's had so much loss, so much pain and he feels like it's all his fault. He can't deal with it. So he turns to the machine - turns to Cameron because it's an emotionally safer place for him to be.
But what happens when he leaps forward to find her? He runs into humanity - human beings struggling for their very survival. And of course, they're all people that are going to impact him on a personal, emotional level. He'll come back a very different person and it won't be a harder John Connor. That's where I see it going.
Re: But Kaliba already HAS terminators (being sent back?)roxybisquaintApril 9 2010, 00:55:41 UTC
Cont'd
Kaliba’s AI may be the result of Danny Dyson’s stack of blocks. Kaliba’s instance of Sky Net may be the result of the elimination of its previously successful competition by Sarah, by Derek, by John and Cameron.
I have no doubt Danny Dyson is involved with Kaliba, but no strong stance on whether it's voluntary or involuntary (I lean towards the latter, though). And I do think the emergence of Kaliba >> Skynet is the direct result of Andy's fate. In fact, life_on_queen has theorized before that maybe someone stole Turk 1 before Sarah burned down Andy's house and it ended up in the hands of whoever is behind Kaliba, while Turk 2 ended up in Weaver's hands. It's an interesting idea and would fit the "Cain and Abel" theme (born of the same father, but raised differently). Or it could be that they're two completely unrelated AIs that are only linnked through the Cyberdyne code (which would in essence make Miles Dysons their father).
John needed to develop a closer relationship with the technology, to turn it to his advantage. He could not achieve this by burning Cameron.
Well, I don't actually subscribe to the idea that John Connor is (eventually) an awesome leader and savior of humanity because he learns to care about the metal. Maybe he learns to balance an appreciation and respect for technology with "people matter, they're all that matter", but I would be sorely disappointed if he story was that we can avert the apocalypse if we all just love our machines and treat them like humans.
I’m confused by this. Sky Net has sent Grays back to mess with the timeline, but isn’t giving Kaliba useful targeting information. (Winston) put a tracking bug in Sarah’s breast, presumably to find and capture John, and water boy goes after the Weavers instead of the Connors. Perhaps you’re right: John is already irrelevant, and Derek was only killed because he was in the way.
That's exactly why I think John is already irrelevant by the time the attack happens in To the Lighthouse. I don't think they had a clue (or cared) about who he was. He and Sarah were simply Kaliba enemies. Derek getting killed was, I think, just a machine killing one of the people that were interfering with his mission to kill Savannah.
The Water Cooler terminator did show an interest in Sarah when she was getting arrested in Adam Raised a Cain and when he heard her name on the news in BTR. That implies to me that he knew the name "Sarah Connor". If John Connor had been his default primary target, he would've ditched his other mission and come after her to find John. So in this johnless future, I think Sarah Connor must still be known to Skynet even if John isn't (but obviously she's not a primary target).
Yes and no. We've got the game of Go in the mix too. The rules have changed to some extent.
Cameron is a high-value piece; an asset to John Connor, Sarah Connor, and, as it turns out, to John Henry.
So is the queen in chess, but the Japanese won their chess match against Andy's Turk by pulling a Byrne-Fischer and sacrificing it.
Kaliba apparently is an adversary to Weaver and John Henry.
Where are you getting that from? Kaliba was trying to destroy Weaver and John Henry, not to mention kill Savannah.
Since Kaliba is already sending infiltrators back, and needs a chip, the smuggling logistics are trivial.
True and Skynet could've just made a chip for that purpose that wouldn't self-destruct when it got exposed to air. So why the Kaliba AI would need/want Cameron's chip specifically is unknown. That's why I defaulted to Cameron's chip being special - the most powerful neural net processor on earth (according to present-day John, anyway and he really has no way of knowing that).
But we do know Cameron's chip looks very different than all the other chips we've seen. It would lead me to believe it really is much more advanced than the chips used by any of the T-888s running around. Why Skynet isn't making those same chips for all its bots is part of the mystery.
It's more important to deny Team Connor and the "third faction" access to Cameron's chip.
I actually think Kaliba has come about because of the johnless future (the future he jumped into in BTR). We don't know when that path began, but I'm starting to suspect it could go all the way back to John putting Cameron's chip back in in S&D - that that moment could have started the series of events that ultimately lead to John making that leap into the future (and removing himself as leader of the resistance).
Kaliba seemed to be after Sarah and John because of their warehouse getting blown up by Weaver (which they thought Sarah and her son were responsible for). So the attack on Sarah and John in Lighthouse wasn't the traditional KILL JOHN CONNOR thing, it was about killing a present-day enemy.
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I think there may be some "specialness" to Cameron but I don't think it's something known to the rest of Skynet. I think it's far more likely that she merely had information (either about the Connors in the present day or from the Future War) that was important.
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How could Skynet not know? It created her and her chip. Maybe it didn't know the extent of how well that type of chip would ultimately function, though. Is that what you meant?
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You’ve got me there. I can’t let go of the concept that the players have value beyond their position in the game-space.
"… the Japanese won their chess match against Andy's Turk by pulling a Byrne-Fischer and sacrificing (their queen)."
OK, so John has relinquished control, and Cameron initiated self sacrifice, to give John an advantage? Possibly, but Cameron was targeted by Kaliba, rather than offering herself to them.
"Kaliba was trying to destroy Weaver and John Henry, not to mention kill Savannah."
OK, definitely an adversary. I just have this nagging suspicion that the HK attack was pretty lame, and could have been a confidence ploy orchestrated by Weaver to entice John to follow Weaver/John Henry/Cameron’s Chip.
Since Kaliba is already sending infiltrators back, and needs a chip, the smuggling logistics are trivial.
"I defaulted to Cameron's chip being special - the most powerful neural net processor on earth."
The inverse view of this was Cromartie’s assertion that Cameron’s chip is damaged, that she’s making mistakes because of the damage. Funny that it turns out to be John Henry’s life boat. I’m taking the position that it WAS damaged in the explosion, and the part of her uniqueness stems from the rerouting she did to patch around the damage, more so than some superiority of the initial design.
"we do know Cameron's chip looks very different than all the other chips we've seen…. Why Skynet isn't making those same chips for all its bots is part of the mystery."
Was it different from Vic's chip? I don’t know, maybe she was a prototype, got captured, reprogrammed, and Sky Net said “Crap! Back to the drawing board…”.
“I actually think Kaliba has come about because of the john-less future”
There were actually TWO John-less time segments, both involving Cameron, which brings me back around to an earlier view that: Protecting John is a Bad Thing. Leaders are tempered in the fires of adversity.
AI is one of those technologies which have reached critical mass. The building blocks are present in so many places, that the attainment of the technology, of an implementation, is inevitable. Kaliba’s AI may be the result of Danny Dyson’s stack of blocks. Kaliba’s instance of Sky Net may be the result of the elimination of its previously successful competition by Sarah, by Derek, by John and Cameron.
John needed to develop a closer relationship with the technology, to turn it to his advantage. He could not achieve this by burning Cameron.
snip “the attack on Sarah and John in Lighthouse wasn't the traditional KILL JOHN CONNOR thing, it was about killing a present-day enemy.”
I’m confused by this. Sky Net has sent Grays back to mess with the timeline, but isn’t giving Kaliba useful targeting information. (Winston) put a tracking bug in Sarah’s breast, presumably to find and capture John, and water boy goes after the Weavers instead of the Connors. Perhaps you’re right: John is already irrelevant, and Derek was only killed because he was in the way.
Ponder, I must.
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No, but she presumably offered herself to John Henry. Until we know more about what was going on in the future at the point that Cameron came back, it's hard to come up with a solid theory on who sent her and what her full mission was or whether she sacrificed herself or was sacrificed by whoever sent her (which may or may not have been future!John).
I just have this nagging suspicion that the HK attack was pretty lame, and could have been a confidence ploy orchestrated by Weaver to entice John to follow Weaver/John Henry/Cameron’s Chip.
That's an angle I hadn't considered - that Weaver really was behind Kaliba and used it to create the illusion of a common enemy. I'm not inclined to not agree. Even though I see Weaver as ultimately being bad for mankind, I actually do believe her when she said she was building something to stop Skynet. Maybe she's got me duped :P
The inverse view of this was Cromartie’s assertion that Cameron’s chip is damaged, that she’s making mistakes because of the damage. Funny that it turns out to be John Henry’s life boat. I’m taking the position that it WAS damaged in the explosion, and the part of her uniqueness stems from the rerouting she did to patch around the damage, more so than some superiority of the initial design.
Cameron's chip was definitely damaged in the explosion. Her own systems check said that right afterwards (even showed the location of the damage on screen). I agree that the resulting glitchiness is part of what makes her unique now. It's made her unpredictable like a human (the ability to "cross against the light").
Was it different from Vic's chip? I don’t know, maybe she was a prototype, got captured, reprogrammed, and Sky Net said “Crap! Back to the drawing board…”.
Yes, very clearly different and all the chips we've seen appear to look like Vick's. I think Cameron being a prototype is a good probability. She was being sent as an infiltrator to John's camp to kill him so I guess Skynet wanted her to be better and smarter than the standard T-888.
There were actually TWO John-less time segments, both involving Cameron, which brings me back around to an earlier view that: Protecting John is a Bad Thing. Leaders are tempered in the fires of adversity.
Two? You think BTR was the second time he'd jumped forward and removed himself from the equation? When was the other? I think I'm going to need some details on that theory.
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Referring back to T1, John never prevented Judgement Day: he revealed his skills and rose to lead the resistance while in Century Work Camp.
I would question whether he knows enough, post BTR, to BE THAT GUY, as a result of two terminators jumping him to "safety".
I'm rooting for his exposure to the reality of Judgement Day to stiffen his resolve, and to escape back to the past, to build the resistance.
Reply
I would question whether he knows enough, post BTR, to BE THAT GUY
I don't think he's even close yet. He still has too many issues to deal with. I'm sure his time there will help him deal with them, though.
I'm rooting for his exposure to the reality of Judgement Day to stiffen his resolve, and to escape back to the past, to build the resistance.
I don't think it's his resolve that's in question, nor his abilities. I think John's biggest problem is he's running away from humanity. "Human beings can't be replaced." He's had so much loss, so much pain and he feels like it's all his fault. He can't deal with it. So he turns to the machine - turns to Cameron because it's an emotionally safer place for him to be.
But what happens when he leaps forward to find her? He runs into humanity - human beings struggling for their very survival. And of course, they're all people that are going to impact him on a personal, emotional level. He'll come back a very different person and it won't be a harder John Connor. That's where I see it going.
Reply
Kaliba’s AI may be the result of Danny Dyson’s stack of blocks. Kaliba’s instance of Sky Net may be the result of the elimination of its previously successful competition by Sarah, by Derek, by John and Cameron.
I have no doubt Danny Dyson is involved with Kaliba, but no strong stance on whether it's voluntary or involuntary (I lean towards the latter, though). And I do think the emergence of Kaliba >> Skynet is the direct result of Andy's fate. In fact, life_on_queen has theorized before that maybe someone stole Turk 1 before Sarah burned down Andy's house and it ended up in the hands of whoever is behind Kaliba, while Turk 2 ended up in Weaver's hands. It's an interesting idea and would fit the "Cain and Abel" theme (born of the same father, but raised differently). Or it could be that they're two completely unrelated AIs that are only linnked through the Cyberdyne code (which would in essence make Miles Dysons their father).
John needed to develop a closer relationship with the technology, to turn it to his advantage. He could not achieve this by burning Cameron.
Well, I don't actually subscribe to the idea that John Connor is (eventually) an awesome leader and savior of humanity because he learns to care about the metal. Maybe he learns to balance an appreciation and respect for technology with "people matter, they're all that matter", but I would be sorely disappointed if he story was that we can avert the apocalypse if we all just love our machines and treat them like humans.
I’m confused by this. Sky Net has sent Grays back to mess with the timeline, but isn’t giving Kaliba useful targeting information. (Winston) put a tracking bug in Sarah’s breast, presumably to find and capture John, and water boy goes after the Weavers instead of the Connors. Perhaps you’re right: John is already irrelevant, and Derek was only killed because he was in the way.
That's exactly why I think John is already irrelevant by the time the attack happens in To the Lighthouse. I don't think they had a clue (or cared) about who he was. He and Sarah were simply Kaliba enemies. Derek getting killed was, I think, just a machine killing one of the people that were interfering with his mission to kill Savannah.
The Water Cooler terminator did show an interest in Sarah when she was getting arrested in Adam Raised a Cain and when he heard her name on the news in BTR. That implies to me that he knew the name "Sarah Connor". If John Connor had been his default primary target, he would've ditched his other mission and come after her to find John. So in this johnless future, I think Sarah Connor must still be known to Skynet even if John isn't (but obviously she's not a primary target).
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