John's big bluff (from Today is the Day 2)

[roxybisquaint]

I was never happy about the John retcon in "Today is the Day part 2". It just didn't add up. He never acted like he had a clue about Riley until "Ourselves Alone", but that didn't give him any time to follow her around, learn about Jesse or figure out the plot. So that's where I've been stuck for a long time. And believing he figured anything out

Comments

[trinfaneb]

I like it! I was having trouble with the retconning too, although I'm glad it happened it happened because it helps establish that John Connor has a Kirkian ability to find a way to beat the bad guys in the end, even if he does have to pay a high price to do it.

[roxybisquaint]

Cool. I really liked this too. I get obsessed with these kinds of things sometimes and I was never happy about that episode because the pivotal scene with Jesse didn't work for me. Now it does :)

[indiefic]

I didn't have a problem with the retcon, but I think I like your idea better. It's more manipulative ala future!John.

[zanpakto]

I don't think its more manipulative. I think its more like...how exactly would he have figured it out?

[roxybisquaint]

Oh I do. I don't think there's anything manipulative with the notion of John having done exactly what he said - figured it all out a while before, followed Riley, etc. Then he's simply laying out the truth to Jesse (if you can swallow that as the truth, which I couldn't). So if John kind of figured it out last minute and made Jesse think he was onto her little game for a while, it's very manipulative.

[roxybisquaint]

Yes! Manipulative. That's the word I'm missing in there. The one thing we've always known about John is that he's a very quick thinker. So I can easily believe that he could put all the pieces together in a short time once he had enough to go on. I'm so happy I've figured out a way to embrace the John and Jesse scene.

[johnnypate]

I like your thinking here Roxy. I have been thinking that the anti-John human faction (and by extension Jesse) is actually a really big deal. Apart from the fact that it hampers John (which really, it appears, means John as figurehead and Cameron/John Henry - Cameron's "specialness" is that she's John Henry and is a super-AI like Skynet and has the smarts to defeat Skynet) the anti-John faction has time travel tech. They aren't small players in this

[roxybisquaint]

The timeline stuff from the finale has been hurting my head all day. I spent hours thinking about it and I'm still working up a post about the finale that will get into all that. I just have to get my thoughts clear first so I have a solid starting point.

Basically where my head is at right now is that the period of time between when John left and where John emerges can not be changed. Usually the future is not set, but because we're seeing both ends of the line, we see the result of everything that came before. So no matter what we see Sarah do, for example, we know the end result is that judgement day happened.

What's causing me hours of contemplation is trying to figure out what happens if a time traveler from when John is or later in time goes back to some point after John left and causes a change. It think that would have to create a new timeline and effectively trap John where he is now. It would also mean Sarah and John could never reunite. But I'm still thinking it through.

Have you ever seen my big time travel post? I don

[johnnypate]

Just checked out your TT post. We've been thinking along the same lines. I'm not running with the same working hypothesis as you tho. At present, both in TSCC universe and the me here and now, I'm running with the theory that everyone has their own individual timeline. The only timeline in TSCC that needs to have no casual contradictions in its one self-consistent timeline is "our" Sarah's. She is moving into a changing future where there is no fate but what she makes for herself but she can't retro-edit her past. By that theory, now John has time-jumped he's not her John... except maybe if he's somehow entangled himself by jumping back to before the jump we saw him make in the finale. He then pops up in S03E01 as Sarah is leaving Ziera saying, `I went to the future and came back for you.' Cue some agonizing about whether it is really "her John" and does that even matter when he's the only one she's got

[johnnypate]

Errata: I meant to say, "causal contradictions" by which I mean Sarah's past experience can't be retro-edited. Now my head is hurting with the thought of two Sarahs in one timeline...

[zanpakto]

The question of "how long would it take to last against a terminator" is relevant. He definitely did figure that a real person killed her. Then John was left with "who?" Nobody looked to be directly connected with Riley. Talking to his mom about it lead nowhere. He couldnt trust Cam. Its possible he went to Uncle Derek. Perhaps thats how Derek was psyched up enough to do whatever to Jesse.

Before this:
Derek is not dumb, he did ask Jesse what she was doing, and she gave a lame answer. Derek was more suspicious of Jesse than than John was suspicious about Riley.
----------

I don't think John was suspicious of Riley at the point of the Mexico trip. I think it was after she slashed her wrists!! Riley was sending a message to John that something is fucked up, and she can't do anything about it.

I am not really concerned about how or at what point any of this happened. But I'd accept any of these events, and the most logical and easy of them would win out. Maybe you should make a poll.

[roxybisquaint]

I don't think John was suspicious of Riley being from the future because she tried to kill herself. It was pretty obvious that she was a troubled girl, but that alone isn't any evidence that she's future girl.

A poll?! No need! I've already made my ruling on how it all went down ;)

[the_narration]

I like this theory. It fits. I never bought the retcon that John knew all along. It didn't match up with anything he'd said or done. (Writers take note: this is why plot twists should always be planned well in advance and never made up as you go!) If he'd known Riley was from the future, he would have said that when Sarah brought up the "bleached skulls" thing and accused him of telling her too much. But after that, there's enough clues to start thinking along those lines, and it only makes sense to lie to Jesse. No point in letting an adversary know how well they'd decieved you and how close their plan had come to working.

[roxybisquaint]

If he'd known Riley was from the future, he would have said that when Sarah brought up the "bleached skulls" thing and accused him of telling her too much.

Exactly. John may not be one to confide in Sarah much, but when a moment like that came along where everything was pointing to him having talked about judgement day to Riley, I think he would have said something. It would be kind of ridiculous not to. Also, he seemed legitimately surprised when his mom told him about all that.