Sentire: Reaction Post
This is the place for any comments you'd like to make about the Sentire series as a whole. I really appreciate your feedback, and I welcome all comments, both positive and negative.
My initial notes, just bits and pieces in no particular order (and possibly completely unintelligble), are under the cut, and I will add to them as we go along.
1. When I ( Read more... )
My initial notes, just bits and pieces in no particular order (and possibly completely unintelligble), are under the cut, and I will add to them as we go along.
1. When I ( Read more... )
First, I certainly didn't feel misled - or maybe just a fraction, since I was reading this from better_with_3. But you did make clear from the outset that it was primarily a Rose/Nine story. I knew that. My comments about Jack were never to say 'Give me OT3' or 'this isn't what I was expecting'; I was simply showing you my reactions to events :)
I think what really, really made this feel like a genuine threesome relationship, though, was that pivotal first lovemaking scene. That was simply gorgeous, and it felt genuinely like all three of them making love with each other, equal partners in the relationship. I've seen threesome sex; I've seen sex with three of them present in which two people get it on and the third's little more than an observer. Or in which it's sequential twosome sex. This was all three, and it was perfect. Now, I didn't feel misled; it's just that at that point the relationship felt like a real trio rather than two plus Jack. That was added to by Jack openly saying he loved both of them, Rose telling him she loved him, and the Doctor's silent admission. This wasn't just sex; it really was love. So maybe there was a tiny bit of ambiguity there, and while my head knew you weren't going in that direction my heart was well on the way over there because of what I was reading ;)
You're also dealing with the inclinations of some of us who like the OT3: once Jack's on the scene, and especially if there's any relationship stuff at all (from subtext to full-out sex), it feels... odd to have a relationship between the Doctor and Rose and not involve Jack. Not that I mean it's wrong; it's just my slant on things.
You did handle the 'fallout' very, very well; I can totally buy Jack withdrawing graciously, whether or not it's what he feels inside. My own reading of Jack as a character in S1 suggests that he could well be more hurt by this than he's letting on, and I'd wonder how long he'd stick around as the ex-lover and gooseberry, particularly as we know he loves both of them. How long can you be in love yet accept being shut out of a deeper relationship, one you once had? (even if he always knew he was never as close as the Doctor and Rose are to each other). But that's only my interpretation, of course.
So, yeah, it's much more a matter of personal preferences than a characterisation issue in the fic. I've read another couple of stories where Jack's allowed a shag or two (often to engineer the Doctor and Rose getting together) and then kicked out, never to return to the bedroom. That just feels as if he's been used, and that's something I really do dislike. You didn't do that. As I said, you allowed him to exit the bedroom with dignity and graciousness, and at least appearing to be comfortable with the situation.
In the end, you went with what felt right for the story you wanted to tell, and that's by far the best criterion for your decision. Trying to please readers by changing your story because you felt some people (even a majority) wanted something different would have been a mistake; you can never please everyone, and it may have spoilt the story for you because it wasn't the story you wanted to tell in the end.
*shrug* To summarise a very, very long post, you told the story that made sense to you, and you did it in a way that was plausible, even if some of us would have liked a different outcome in the OT3 respect. And that's only a personal preference :) You did the right thing.
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I agree with you that Jack is probably a little more hurt and/or disappointed than he lets on, but I'm going to nitpick this: ... and I'd wonder how long he'd stick around as the ex-lover and gooseberry, particularly as we know he loves both of them. How long can you be in love yet accept being shut out of a deeper relationship, one you once had?... by saying that "love" and "in love" are different things. I agree that Jack feels the former, but I don't necessarily agree that he feels the latter. IMHO, anyway, he loves Nine and Rose but has sex with them in a 51st century, commonplace-activity, friends-with-benefits kind of way (which I still think can be as powerful as the Interlude was, and BTW thank you for your lovely comments on that!); whereas (and again I stress the IMHO-ness of this) he is IN love with Ianto, and has 21st century strings-attached sex with him. :)
It's an interesting issue all around, and I do appreciate your insight and the others who have piped up on Jack's behalf. :) I'm sure I will be revisiting it should I ever attempt a true OT3 fic!
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Ooh, and this is where I part company completely and absolutely with you! As I see it, Ianto is a convenient sex-partner. Jack likes him; loves him in the way he loves all the team; but isn't in love with him. And, yes, that may partly be my own prejudice (I've tried, but I don't like Ianto and I loathe Jack/Ianto), but it's also based on Ianto's comments to others about their relationship: the 'dabbling' and the comment to Owen that 'it's not what you think'.
Other than that, yes, Jack's better-equipped than most to deal with the fallout of being ejected from the bedroom, and of course they still love him and he loves them. Me, I tend to see him as in love with them as well, but again this is one of those interpretation/characterisation things. One is as reconcilable with canon as the other, even if Jack has given a lot of hints that his feelings for both the Doctor and Rose are very strong. Kissing them goodbye. Dying for them. Still loving the Doctor even after being abandoned (his aside to Martha in Sound of Drums, for example. Going to see Rose grow up. But, yeah, I'm sure others could interpret all those as the love of a good friend plus added sexual attraction.
Again, thanks for the great discussion!
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