Blurring the in-game/meta-game ethics line

[clawfoot]

So, in the wake of my last campaign (which was awesome), we've started a new one. D&D 4e again, same world -- the players can see the effects their PCs have had on the world, and some of their characters' children are still influential NPCs here and there. One is a new demigod (he was a paladin named Bruce -- I think I had them rolling on the

Comments

[m_danson]

I've done it as a GM. It worked out well and the characters chased him to the ends of the earth and never forgave the NPC nor ever trusted anything he touched ever again (which was terribly useful for plot). The Players had a good time. It did shake them up a bit (they were less trusting of NPCs in the future) but everyone was happy.

I think some of the reasons that it worked were:

1) The NPC had a very good in game reason for being there (ie he was motivated and had a reason to do what he was doing).
2) I gave clues that something was up (much like you are doing here) that they pieced together in retrospect.
3) The actual betrayal didn't kill anyone (it just got them captured and betrayed information to the enemy).
4) I made very sure that it was a PC/NPC thing NOT a way for me as the GM to show up the Players.
5) I gave them a chance to avenge themselves... much later near the end of the plot after they had figured things out.

[clawfoot]

That's a good checklist to keep in mind. Yes, the NPC does have a reason for being there -- he was told to be, although he doesn't know the reason why yet. He is a dutiful servant, and with him being a cleric, it's sitting totally fine with the other players when he says, "My patron pointed me in this direction."

I don't plan to kill anyone with him, and in fact I kind of plan for him to develop actual, real friendships with the group, which will cause him some regret when the time comes but not slow him down. (It may even be a out for me if I need the PCs spared from a TPK.)

And if he survives the moment of betrayal, I will certainly bring him back later. :)

[ext_1360528]

Have you asked your players how they feel about secrets

[xuenay]

Have you asked your players how they feel about secrets?

Alternatively, if asking how they feel about secrets would be giving too much away, "how do they like surprises" is another question that you could consider. Some people absolutely love surprises, and some hate them. If the previous campaigns have had surprising plot twists that the players really liked, then pulling something like this is probably safe, too.

[clawfoot]

Oh, yes, that open style of play can be a lot of fun, and I've done it often. This particular instance, however, I think would have the greatest impact if it were an actual surprise.

I do have 15+ years experience with these particular players, and they do have slightly different styles. I know one of them is going to eat this up for breakfast and ask for more. She loves this kind of stuff. The other... the other is more of a "happily ever after" kind of player, who plays for pure escapism. This might actually upset her a bit, if the NPC sticks with the party for the majority of the campaign.

She is also very much into the concept of redemption for characters, however, so if I get the feeling she's actually upset by the betrayal, I can likely save the game through a redemption subplot and return the NPC to them

[terrycloth]

What makes me angry about GM betrayal is when we go along with what looks like the GM's railroading because we don't want to wreck his campaign, and then get punished for it because 'you should have done the obvious thing!' that we only didn't do because we were trying to be nice to him and not ruin his planning.

'Punished for it' doesn't mean 'we have to face interesting, level appropriate challenges' since that's the sort of thing we're hoping for; it's things like 'you auto fail because this person is still around and you never caught on'. Which has happened. Or just 'NPCs are all talking about how stupid and gullible you are for not catching on' as a less bad but still really aggravating example.

[clawfoot]

Yes, that would make me angry, too. I try very hard not to be that kind of GM. I try to keep my games fun to play, and it's never very fun to feel like you're being punished for something. I'm all about actions having consequences, of course, but I'm not in an adversarial relationship with my players. We're all telling the same story.

[xuenay]

I think that having something like this pulled on me by a long-time GM who I really wasn't expecting to do anything like it would be awesome.

I get the feeling that the current hints you're giving your players will be too subtle for them to realize what's going on beforehand, but they'll be much clearer in retrospect - of course, that's assuming that your players generally remember what's happened in your campaign and don't tend to be clueless about the stuff that happened three sessions ago, like some players. :-)

[clawfoot]

I'm happy with that -- if they can see the hints in retrospect. Personally, those are the kinds of stories I love most, the ones that surprise me, but upon re-reading/re-watching/remembering it, I can see all the signs clearly. :) I think that's why The Sixth Sense worked so well for so many.

[idemandjustice]

Ack! I was interested in reading this, but I had to stop around half-way when you mentioned Scales of War. My husband is running that exact series for a group of us right now. We're only two sessions in. I've already been spoiled on like two plot points of it, before he decided to run it, but I'm trying not to get spoiled on anything else if I can help it

[clawfoot]

Oh! I knew you were a member of this community, but I'd forgotten you were playing in the same adventure path with another group.

How far in are you? We've just finished the first one (Rescue at Rivenroar) and are just about to start the second (Siege of Bordrin's Watch).

[idemandjustice]

I can't remember if I'd ever actually mentioned doing Scales of War. We're in the midst of Rescue at Rivenroar, somewhere in the middle of that dungeon. I'm excited to find some undead stuff (haven't yet), since I'm playing an Invoker and she ought to be pretty good against that, in theory.

My husband added in some other stuff at the beginning, deciding our characters actually knew each other ahead of time rather than starting as complete strangers as the game suggested.

[clawfoot]

Nice! The first module is a fun little dungeon crawl. I won't give anything away. :)

Our group decided to start as strangers, and it's... interesting. Two of the characters are feeding off each other in very unexpected ways, and it's highly entertaining to watch unfold. Basically, one is a hyper-aggressive brawler who pushes everyone around her in an attempt to get them to push back, and the other is a very detached but intensely curious eladrin who doesn't quite get non-courtly social interaction yet. So they're both blowhards, basically, and constantly call each other's bluffs, which they then feel the need to back up to save face because neither wants to back down... it spirals out of control sometimes and can be hilarious.

You should give your husband my email address. The modules are kind of roughly-done, and there are a few mistakes in them I've found so far that I can warn him about. We can also maybe bounce ideas off each other. :)