Gingerbread etc
I have Peter’s head cold. I feel like boiled death: grey and mushy. Unnnnngh. I’ve known for about twenty four hours that it was coming but I was managing to ignore it, through a powerful combination of self-delusion and headmistressyness (‘McKinley! Pull yourself together and do something!’*). This afternoon it knocked me down and sat on my chest ( Read more... )
*********** Yes. I'm like this. There *are* valid reasons for stuff you don't actually 'enjoy' reading. Sometimes I think the story is worth it. Sometimes I don't. Sometimes I think my decision not to read further is valid. Sometimes I think I'm just being a wussy.
It's a fictional toad, I remind myself. No real toads were harmed in the making of this book, so calm the hell down and read on. But it doesn't change the fact that the character now vividly = tortured toad in my mind for the rest of the book.)
********** Which may of course be the point. This is a character who would torture a toad. It has to be in there *for* that. MOrrow is not a sloppy or sensationalist writer. (Or his sensationalism is to a point, like, well, like Pullman's is.)
But still, there are other books and other authors where I've felt that death is just a tool in their shock-value kit.
************ Yes. These guys I have no qualms about throwing across the room.
At the end of Act II, someone must die, now who's expendable? Maybe it's not really like that on the author's end, but that's how it comes across to me in some books,
************* I think there's a certain amount of schematics in, say, thriller writing, because of the demands of the genre. Which is one reason I don't read thrillers.
and that's when I go pffft.... OK, fine then, see if I read yer next 'un. :) But I still wouldn't ever hassle them about it at a con.
Hmm. Now that it's at the front of my brain again, I may have to give the Morrow another shot just to see if it's as stomach-churning as I'm remembering.
************ You wouldn't like to WARN me which one this is, would you? I have two or three unread Morrows, I think. He's someone I tend to buy on sight, although I think I missed his last.
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Indeed! Though I usually just assume wussiness. Just last week I was reading something I've looked forward to for a long time (Will Eisner's "Contract With God" graphic novel, generally acclaimed as one of the most groundbreaking books in the comic field.) It's a series of 4 stories, and though the first couple were intense and moving I was fine with it. Then I got to one that just completely unhinged me, and I had to put the book down and go curl up with the cats for a while... And even as I was snivelling I was thinking, you DORK, it's just a comic book.
It has to be in there *for* that. MOrrow is not a sloppy or sensationalist writer. (Or his sensationalism is to a point, like, well, like Pullman's is.)
Yeah, I would call Towing Jehovah sensational, but to a very specific end. :) I think the point in this book was to give us a general distaste for the main character's family (as I recall, torturing toads is part of the family business) but Morrow doesn't shy away from the grim and graphic, and I just.... yeah. I just wanted to stop reading it and move away from the book.
I think there's a certain amount of schematics in, say, thriller writing, because of the demands of the genre. Which is one reason I don't read thrillers.
I don't really read thrillers per se, but I do have a great love for pulp mysteries and detective stories from the 1930's-40's. Which are hugely formulaic--but in that case that's what I want, I want the feel of pulp and I'm not concerned with whether the plot felt overly machined. In my sci-fi and fantasy reading, not so much so.
You wouldn't like to WARN me which one this is, would you? I have two or three unread Morrows, I think. He's someone I tend to buy on sight, although I think I missed his last.
It's called Last Witchfinder, and I believe it came out in 2005. He's one of those authors for me, too, which is why I bought that in hardback while on a business trip to the UK; I don't think it was out in the US yet then, and it was on the "new release discount" table at the local bookmart in High Wycombe. I was doing my Buy Things I Can't Find At Home book shopping that I do whenever I'm there, which on that trip included all the Harry Potter books. (Not that I couldn't find them here, but I'm a bit obsessive about cover art and the US release covers suck. The "adult" covers in the UK are lovely, so naturally I had to buy them all. And now I can't buy the seventh book til I either go back to the UK or make an order from Amazon Canada.) Anyway, so the Morrow was a total impulse buy and added several unneeded pounds to my luggage, and then I didn't even read it. WIMP.
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*********** Sounds like a Must Miss to me. :) Listen, I'm one of Neil Gaiman's most slavering fans, and I've never read the Sandman. Waaaaaaay too icky. I've missed graphic novels this time around (hey . . . want to recommend something--?) but I was there when DARK KNIGHT came out, and at that point also I had a boyfriend who was heavily into comic books and he gave me some great stuff . . . about 50% of which I could *read*. I've still got a lot of, oh, Miracle Man, say, sitting in its pristine plastic wrappers.
I don't really read thrillers per se, but I do have a great love for pulp mysteries and detective stories from the 1930's-40's.
*********** What a hoot! So do I. But that's a kind of 'these people breathed the same air as Raymond Chandler' thing for me.
Which are hugely formulaic--but in that case that's what I want, I want the feel of pulp and I'm not concerned with whether the plot felt overly machined. In my sci-fi and fantasy reading, not so much so.
************* I like the pulp SF of that era too. Actually the pulp *fantasy* less so. The serious early fantasy, yes, not so much the pulp stuff.
You wouldn't like to WARN me which one this is, would you? IIt's called Last Witchfinder,
*********** Oops. I have that one.
and I believe it came out in 2005. He's one of those authors for me, too, which is why I bought that in hardback while on a business trip to the UK; I don't think it was out in the US yet then, and it was on the "new release discount" table at the local bookmart in High Wycombe. I was doing my Buy Things I Can't Find At Home book shopping that I do whenever I'm there, which on that trip included all the Harry Potter books. (Not that I couldn't find them here, but I'm a bit obsessive about cover art and the US release covers suck. The "adult" covers in the UK are lovely, so naturally I had to buy them all. And now I can't buy the seventh book til I either go back to the UK or make an order from Amazon Canada.)
********** Can't you just order from amazon.co.uk?
Anyway, so the Morrow was a total impulse buy and added several unneeded pounds to my luggage, and then I didn't even read it. WIMP.
*********** It happens. :)
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That's hilarious--I was just thinking of Gaiman on this thread because he is one of the only other authors I've ever stood in line at a book signing for, and it was a bizarre experience on many levels. I think Mr. Gaiman was Not Having a Good Day that day. :) But Sandman was my introduction to his work, and while I found parts of it really painful/disturbing to read, that was one where I felt it was worth it to soldier through.
I've missed graphic novels this time around (hey . . . want to recommend something--?)
Sure, I'd love to! Depends on what you like, really. Lately I've picked up a few incredible autobiographical graphic novels, rather in the style of Maus. (You've read Maus? Or no? It came out back around 1986, right around when Dark Knight was reinventing superhero comics...) The two that have blown me away in the last year were Persepolis, which is by an Iranian woman who grew up during the revolution--very striking art, fascinating take on Iranian culture etc.--and Fun Home, which is a beautifully written story of a gay woman reflecting on her relationship with her father, who was also gay but closeted. If you've not read Watchmen, that's a classic--also disturbing, but well-told and still strikingly relevant despite its being published around the end of the Cold War. A different spin on superheroes, and kind of an antidote to the darkness of late 80's mainstream comics is Paul Chadwick's Concrete. If you're into painfully cynical humor, then I recommend anything by Kyle Baker--"Why I Hate Saturn" is his best known, I think, and still easy to find. I love his art style. I love his way with dialogue. And for just totally charming fantasy storytelling, Jeff Smith's "Bone" is awesome.
What a hoot! So do I. But that's a kind of 'these people breathed the same air as Raymond Chandler' thing for me.
Ah, no way!! :) So who do you favor particuarly? I find Chandler a bit hard to follow (though I do read and enjoy him.) But I'm a geek for Erle Stanley Gardner and Dashiell Hammett in particular. I collect them in the old pocket paperback editions, with the red ink on the edge of the pages.
I like the pulp SF of that era too. Actually the pulp *fantasy* less so. The serious early fantasy, yes, not so much the pulp stuff.
I haven't ventured too far into early sci-fi myself. Got any recommendations? :)
Can't you just order from amazon.co.uk?
Yeah, but shipping's cheaper from amazon.ca. I'm just being lazy about doing it, keep thinking I should wait til there's something else I need in a Brit edition so I can combine it up. But at that rate it'll be 2010 before I read it, and I feel a need to just get Harry over with. There's a chance I'll be across the pond later this year to visit friends, so if I've not ordered it by then it'll be my read on the return plane ride...
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************* Oh, what happened? I'm sorry. I have met him a few times/know him very very VERY slightly, we bump into each other occasionally. But he kind of fascinates me as the Compleat Professional and he does the Public Author thing so WELL it's both inspiring and . . . *totally* f------ discouraging to someone who does it so badly. So in my hopeless-little-kid persona I want to HEAR about an occasion when he, you know, dropped a stitch. . . . But chances are it's because he'd been up the last forty eight hours having high level meetings with, I don't know, Hollywood studios (enough to blow *any* creative person's day/week/year) or the president of Ruritania or . . .
But Sandman was my introduction to his work, and while I found parts of it really painful/disturbing to read, that was one where I felt it was worth it to soldier through.
I've missed graphic novels this time around (hey . . . want to recommend something--?)
Sure, I'd love to! Depends on what you like, really. Lately I've picked up a few incredible autobiographical graphic novels, rather in the style of Maus. (You've read Maus? Or no? It came out back around 1986, right around when Dark Knight was reinventing superhero comics...)
*********** I'm a slob about graphic novels. I want them to be FANTASY. Maus was amazing, and I entirely applaud it for doing things and going places that hadn't been done before. But I didn't . . . like it. And I didn't keep it.
The two that have blown me away in the last year were Persepolis, which is by an Iranian woman who grew up during the revolution--very striking art, fascinating take on Iranian culture etc.--and Fun Home, which is a beautifully written story of a gay woman reflecting on her relationship with her father, who was also gay but closeted.
********** Sigh. I have to get over my fantasy thing, then, do I? I'll see if I can find them to look at.
If you've not read Watchmen, that's a classic--also disturbing, but well-told and still strikingly relevant despite its being published around the end of the Cold War.
************** That's another one that mostly resides in its clean plastic wrappers.
A different spin on superheroes, and kind of an antidote to the darkness of late 80's mainstream comics is Paul Chadwick's Concrete. If you're into painfully cynical humor, then I recommend anything by Kyle Baker--"Why I Hate Saturn" is his best known, I think, and still easy to find. I love his art style. I love his way with dialogue. And for just totally charming fantasy storytelling, Jeff Smith's "Bone" is awesome.
************* Okay, now Bone I know. I started out being hugely impressed and then it rather lost me. I should remember Concrete but one of the holes in my memory seems to be poised over it. I'll look for Kyle Baker.
What a hoot! So do I. But that's a kind of 'these people breathed the same air as Raymond Chandler' thing for me.
Ah, no way!! :) So who do you favor particuarly? I find Chandler a bit hard to follow (though I do read and enjoy him.) But I'm a geek for Erle Stanley Gardner and Dashiell Hammett in particular. I collect them in the old pocket paperback editions, with the red ink on the edge of the pages.
************ I'd have to go look . . . I ADORE Chandler. He's in my second rank of writers, right after Tolkien and Kipling. *Fie* on you. :)
I'm not so much Hammett; he's kind of half real writing and half pulp to my eye and the join isn't a comfy one. Gardner . . . life is too *short*.
I like the pulp SF of that era too. Actually the pulp *fantasy* less so. The serious early fantasy, yes, not so much the pulp stuff.
I haven't ventured too far into early sci-fi myself. Got any recommendations? :)
************* Again I'd have to go look . . . maybe LATER . . . But chances are I *can't*. I tend to buy it when seen (usually ID'd by ridiculous cover), read, and move on, and when we moved from Large House to Small House that 'collection' is one of the things that didn't come with me. I thought Asimov's GOLDEN AGE series was lots of fun, if you didn't see it, it's a place to start.
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:) It was on his book tour about 10 years ago, for that one that took place in the underground--Neverwhere?--and this was while I was living in Chicago and going to grad school (the first time.) One of my best friends from college and I decided to go hear him read from the book at a sci-fi bookstore which is now sadly defunct. Naturally there were HUNDREDS of people there. Mr. Gaiman was wearing one of those huge, heavy black leather jackets with zippers and studs everywhere, skintight black jeans, and a pair of dark sunglasses--which is really just how I would have pictured him. But the thing is, it was a Chicago midsummer night, and the A/C in the store had cut out. With everyone in there, it must have been 90 degrees and 100% humidity in that place. So the poor man--who for some reason wouldn't take the jacket off--was positively RUNNING with sweat. He read from the book, which was nice, and then we all got in line for signing. It was hot, and slow, and when we got within a few feet of him it was obvious he was wishing for death. So I don't hold this against him at all--but a middle-aged lady a few people ahead of me had brought Good Omens for him to sign. He looked at it, and snapped something to the effect of "Oh fuck, not that one. I fucking hated that book, it was a piece of shit." The lady was pretty stunned, and I quietly slipped MY copy of Good Omens back into my backpack before I got to the table. :)
'm a slob about graphic novels. I want them to be FANTASY.
:) That makes the recommender's task slightly harder, as I'm picky about my fantasy and finding one that combines great art with a great story is tough. But might I suggest Mouse Guard? That's new, should be relatively easy to find. It's very art-driven, but the story is classic fantasy.
Sigh. I have to get over my fantasy thing, then, do I? I'll see if I can find them to look at.
That's entirely up to you! But I do think that good and innovative fantasy graphic novels are harder to find than other types. I'll give it some thought. And the best fantasy I can think of is Sandman.... :)
That's another one that mostly resides in its clean plastic wrappers.
Alan Moore's a love/hate thing for me. I liked his more recent "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen," but that has some serious "wow, I wish I could un-see that" moments in it.
I'll look for Kyle Baker.
He's not fantasy, mind you! :) If you like classical mythology, you might try William Loeb's "Epicurus the Sage," if you can find it. Funny, brainy, and charming art.
I ADORE Chandler. He's in my second rank of writers, right after Tolkien and Kipling. *Fie* on you. :)
I'm not so much Hammett; he's kind of half real writing and half pulp to my eye and the join isn't a comfy one. Gardner . . . life is too *short*.
I've liked some Chandler! :) But hell, I have no idea what's going on in The Big Sleep... and the movie makes it worse. That's an interesting comment on Hammett, I'd agree with you there. I love Gardner for lots of reasons which I'll not bore you with here, but after about 30 of them it does get a little repetitive.
The little Asimov I've read was his later stuff, so I'll have to go back and check. Hooray for ridiculous covers! Another thing I love about old pulp mysteries--how many ways can we almost but not quite show an exposed breast? :) Too funny.
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************ Oh dear. Well, I can't give you the details, but there was some back story about GOOD OMENS that might explain his reaction, although he obviously WAS having a bad day. He is a black leather jacket boy but one DOES wonder why he didn't take it off on this occasion. Probably had a big coffee stain on his t shirt or a big hole in the butt of his jeans or something. :) That's the kind of thing that happens to ME.
'm a slob about graphic novels. I want them to be FANTASY.
:) That makes the recommender's task slightly harder, as I'm picky about my fantasy
********** Good! :)
and finding one that combines great art with a great story is tough. But might I suggest Mouse Guard? That's new, should be relatively easy to find. It's very art-driven, but the story is classic fantasy.
************ Thank you! :)
Sigh. I have to get over my fantasy thing, then, do I? I'll see if I can find them to look at.
That's entirely up to you! But I do think that good and innovative fantasy graphic novels are harder to find than other types.
************* Interesting. Seems to me a whole great division of fantasy is *longing* to go graphic.
I'll give it some thought. And the best fantasy I can think of is Sandman.... :)
********** Phhhhhhht. :)
That's another one that mostly resides in its clean plastic wrappers.
Alan Moore's a love/hate thing for me. I liked his more recent "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen," but that has some serious "wow, I wish I could un-see that" moments in it.
*********** Ah. I knew there was a reason I haven't looked at it. There are parts of *Swamp Thing* for pity's sake that I wish I could unsee. A couple bits are now permanent nightmares.
I'll look for Kyle Baker.
He's not fantasy, mind you! :) If you like classical mythology, you might try William Loeb's "Epicurus the Sage," if you can find it. Funny, brainy, and charming art.
I ADORE Chandler. He's in my second rank of writers, right after Tolkien and Kipling. *Fie* on you. :)
I'm not so much Hammett; he's kind of half real writing and half pulp to my eye and the join isn't a comfy one. Gardner . . . life is too *short*.
I've liked some Chandler! :) But hell, I have no idea what's going on in The Big Sleep...
*********** Neither did he, you know. :)
and the movie makes it worse.
*********** Yes, this is also notorious.
That's an interesting comment on Hammett, I'd agree with you there. I love Gardner for lots of reasons which I'll not bore you with here, but after about 30 of them it does get a little repetitive.
************ Yes, that was my problem!
The little Asimov I've read was his later stuff, so I'll have to go back and check.
************ No, this is Asimov editing stuff that he'd read when HE was a boy. Really, really early, really, really silly, really, really fun.
Hooray for ridiculous covers! Another thing I love about old pulp mysteries--how many ways can we almost but not quite show an exposed breast? :) Too funny.
************ YES. I also like the something-torpedo-shaped-straining-at-the-thin-wisp-of-material on the babe's chest that are obviously NOT breasts. :)
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I kind of figured. I'm not sure I'd want to co-author a book with Terry Pratchett. :) (I'm not sure I'd want to co-author a book with anyone, that strikes me as a really really hard thing to do--and I'm not much of a Pratchett fan.)
He is a black leather jacket boy but one DOES wonder why he didn't take it off on this occasion.
I certainly did wonder--seriously, just sitting on the floor of the bookstore during the reading I was wringing wet, and I remember this clearly 10 years later. I can't imagine what it must have felt like to be him, though he was at least near the propped-open front door...
Probably had a big coffee stain on his t shirt or a big hole in the butt of his jeans or something. :) That's the kind of thing that happens to ME.
:) And me! One of my new favorite con stories is of a panel last year called "How to Fight at Wiscon," which purported to discuss how to express one's difference of opinion in a constructive way. I frequently want to argue with people at Wiscon, so I went and expressed my thoughts on the matter. At the end, a panellist who was obviously a very Sensitive New Age sort of fellow said to me, "I see your body language is still indicating that you feel very closed-off and somewhat hostile. Can we do anything to help you?" And I had to admit that the real reason I was sitting with my arms firmly crossed over my chest for the entire panel was not that I was pissed off, but that I had spilled coffee down my front right before the start of the panel and I was trying to cover up... :)
Thank you! :)
You're welcome! And now that I'm not in a hurry, here's a link to Mouse Guard. It's really quite good, I'm embarassed I didn't think of it on the first go-round.
Interesting. Seems to me a whole great division of fantasy is *longing* to go graphic.
It seems to me like you get artistic folks who want to do a graphic treatment of existing fantasy works, but not so many writer/artist teams who want to break new ground with it... though it's certainly possible I've missed some good stuff, during my 5 years without a steady income I fell out of the comic hobby and am only now clambering back in. But a lot of comic book fantasy I can think of is either too artistically cutesy for my taste (ElfQuest, even when it was trying to be edgy, always made me cringe) or too bland. Whine, whine.
Sandman.... Phhhhhhht. :)
You could have Peter put black tape over the creepy bits.
There are parts of *Swamp Thing* for pity's sake that I wish I could unsee. A couple bits are now permanent nightmares.
Oooog. I only bought Swamp Thing once or twice in the monthlies, because he had someone fabulous doing the cover art and I was entranced. But I never really READ it read it. There was one bit in "League" which was simultaneously one of the most amazingly clever and most horrible things I've ever read in a comic book... The worst bit wasn't technically shown, but it was graphic enough that not much was left to my imagination. Gah.
doh, i have exceeded maximum comment length again... apparently I'm even more verbose than usual. will put the other bit in a second comment, and will try to restrain myself in future. :)
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***********LOL!!! Yes, I'm there! :)
You're welcome! And now that I'm not in a hurry, here's a link to Mouse Guard. It's really quite good, I'm embarassed I didn't think of it on the first go-round.
************* Great. Thanks.
Interesting. Seems to me a whole great division of fantasy is *longing* to go graphic.
It seems to me like you get artistic folks who want to do a graphic treatment of existing fantasy works, but not so many writer/artist teams who want to break new ground with it
*********** You're probably right. Although there was more of that around in the 80s I think when it was . . . dunno, a different kind of new, maybe.
... though it's certainly possible I've missed some good stuff, during my 5 years without a steady income I fell out of the comic hobby and am only now clambering back in.
************ I lost it when I lost that boyfriend. I've always let myself be interested in too many things, and if someone else will carry one for me I will probably let them.
But a lot of comic book fantasy I can think of is either too artistically cutesy for my taste (ElfQuest, even when it was trying to be edgy, always made me cringe)
******** Oh dear. Yes. Me too I'm afraid.
Sandman.... Phhhhhhht. :)
You could have Peter put black tape over the creepy bits.
*********** I could just go on NOT READING IT. :)
Oooog. I only bought Swamp Thing once or twice in the monthlies, because he had someone fabulous doing the cover art and I was entranced. But I never really READ it read it.
************ If you're a sensitive soul this is the right answer.
There was one bit in "League" which was simultaneously one of the most amazingly clever and most horrible things I've ever read in a comic book... The worst bit wasn't technically shown, but it was graphic enough that not much was left to my imagination. Gah.
************* Right. Don't tell me. I'll eschew League too.
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I think probably so. But there was also the thing, once Frank Miller'd started the ball rolling--that everything had to be grimly realistic to be cool. I wonder if that snuffed a certain amount of fantasy out in its wake. Hmm, I should look into this, now I'm curious.
I lost it when I lost that boyfriend. I've always let myself be interested in too many things, and if someone else will carry one for me I will probably let them.
:) I first got into comics in the mid-80's--also via a boyfriend, I think. Comics lasted, he didn't. Once I pick up something (hobbies, objects, friends) I don't easily lose them... which is probably why my house is so full of stuff.
Oh dear. Yes. Me too I'm afraid.
A lot of my college pals were into ElfQuest, and I never quite understood it. I even briefly worked for the folks who wrote it (they were based in my college's town) and got all the books for free, so I really did give it a chance and read them all. But bleh.
I could just go on NOT READING IT. :)
Yep, that'd probably work too! :)
I actually remember this, just not very well. Gah. Story of my life. Do you have one or three titles to recommend for someone (with no time) wanting a fast pass through?
I'll browse my shelf and pick a couple, will get back to you on that. :)
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:) I first got into comics in the mid-80's--also via a boyfriend, I think. Comics lasted, he didn't. Once I pick up something (hobbies, objects, friends) I don't easily lose them... which is probably why my house is so full of stuff.
*********** EVentually your hands/arms/house/life just won't HOLD any more and then the stuff starts falling out of the windows . . .
I actually remember this, just not very well. Gah. Story of my life. Do you have one or three titles to recommend for someone (with no time) wanting a fast pass through?
I'll browse my shelf and pick a couple, will get back to you on that. :)
************ Oh good! More STUFF!!!!! :)
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Yes, I heard the story of him being on the movie set and the director going, "Raymond, who actually killed Character X anyway?" and him saying "Aw hell, beats me...."
A friend of mine in college bet me $20 that I couldn't explain the plot of "Big Sleep" after viewing it only once. I won the $20, but that was only because I took copious notes and drew diagrams.
Gardner does really interesting things with female characters, which is why I like him; I think the reason I'm still plugging my way through the Perry Mason canon is partly because it's comfort reading--Perry and Della are like old broken-in slippers for me at this point--but also because he frequently writes women who are clever, tough, and funny, and in the context of the pulp detective genre that's a rare thing.
No, this is Asimov editing stuff that he'd read when HE was a boy. Really, really early, really, really silly, really, really fun.
Oh, I MUST READ. Time for a little trip to Alibris.com, my favorite source for vintage paperbacks...
YES. I also like the something-torpedo-shaped-straining-at-the-thin-wisp-of-material on the babe's chest that are obviously NOT breasts. :)
LOL!! Oh, too true. But what....are....they..... *da DUNNN!* aiieee!
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********** I actually remember this, just not very well. Gah. Story of my life. Do you have one or three titles to recommend for someone (with no time) wanting a fast pass through?
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